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Type 2 Is type 2 an autoimmune symptom too?

ickihun said:
http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/autoimmune-diseases
So to date here is the medical description of an autoimmune disease.

Has the list always been there in full. Is any missing or any not discovered yet?

Luckily medicine is a science so always more being discovered.
I won't be surprised if my aliments over the years stem from diabetes or another disease not characterised. It's not that I don't accept type 2 but I know compared to other type 2s I constantly add weight with my ailments even without injections of extra insulin. My body wants to add weight even when my food intake is the same or less. I can shock my system with starvation but once not eating nothing or very very little my body adds weight again.
My body cannot loose weight unless a shock is involved but only a temporary loss.
Sound familiar?
Click to expand...

To solve your problem with obesity, my opinion is you are looking on the wrong subject as a " Immune system disorders".
As you explain, I think, Your obesity problem is "Neuro-Hormonal".
In the human body there are two hormones who regulate hunger and satiety. The name's of this hormones is: Ghrelin and Leptin. This two hormones has close collaboration with the Hypothalamus and the CNS. Disorder in this system can be an explanation for your problem.
By a health organism this two hormones work like a thermostat in the house warming system and like a Insulin and Glucagons about the logistic for administration of the metabolism of the carbohydrates.
Before to go in the details off this system , I recommend to you to read the links below.
It is admission free and it will give to you a basal knowledge to understand your problem.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghrelin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leptin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothalamus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_nervous_system

Have a great day and good luck with the reading lesson.
 
ickihun said:
@luna50 @NoCrbs4Me is in Canada not UK.
Can you both use PMs for personal messages (insults.)
We would like to follow a thread which can debate factual experience. Thanks!
Click to expand...
Canada you say. I was thinking it was more Wales but don't banish them since I like the healthy banter and pulling the wings off a troll. When that's done .............then they can get a room.
 
@luna50
I've read the above thousands of times but they don't change the fact my body wants to add weight without extra calories or fat or carbs.
My system want to increase my weight unless I take drugs to hamper it.
Yes I'm thankful to metformin but it doesn't solve the whole problem.

My whole problem is my system want to add weight (too much insulin?)
What is causing the overproduction of insulin when food is limited or stopped (fasting). Therefore food cannot be the only trigger for extra insulin. Can it?
What is triggering my extra insulin to be made, other than food?

Medical journals only cite food for insulin making. Pancreas only insulin producer. Or is it?
If I've used varied diets to manipulate insulin reduction why has none worked to reduce my weight or stop the adding?
Is it not the insulin quality that is processed wrong? Yes (fat cells block insulin)
What is producing the fat cell?
(Fat cells never die, they empty but never die. Plenty of new fat cells can be made and filled/emptied at any time) So can a person have too many fat cells, even empty ones? Can having too many fat cells over consume the organs and systems of the body, even empty ones?
I'm emptying cells but then something triggers for them to be filled again. Is this my bodies way of having no more room to produce new fat cells or infact can I still produce new fat cells from scratch? Only filling up empty ones first or only?
I'm adding weight on a day of consuming the same nutritional imput as another day I'm not. (All calories are not the same)
I agree not all calories are the same. I eat food from different calories but same total amount but still add weight on less calories (my fitnesspal).
Low carb no weight loss either.
Metformin has changed the my fat cells to softer, lighter ones. I can feel it in my stomach fat but no weight loss. How can that be?
Something more is going on in my body other than fat cells filling and emptying. So I conclude..... what is the type2 diabetes I have?
The same as yours???
 
ickihun said:
@luna50

What is triggering my extra insulin to be made, other than food?
Click to expand...

I would say (from recent reading and a recently improved understanding of insulin resistance) that your background insulin production/requiement is high, due to your insulin resistance.

And getting that to lower is a whole new thread... :)
 
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hang on, so if I'm on insulin I've failed at managing my diabetes? @NoCrbs4Me (at least that is the impression I get that you're telling luna). Every one has a different journey and it's not right to say someone failed and can't give their opinion just because they now need insulin (not that I'm agreeing with luna here, just don't agree that should be used in this debate you're having). I tried the LCHF diet years back and it didn't work for me and I explained why in a few places on this forum. Not everyone can do the exact same thing to manage their diabetes. Just thought I'd make it clear that I don't think I failed at all and the disease has progressed for me.
 
Mep said:
hang on, so if I'm on insulin I've failed at managing my diabetes? @NoCrbs4Me (at least that is the impression I get that you're telling luna). Every one has a different journey and it's not right to say someone failed and can't give their opinion just because they now need insulin (not that I'm agreeing with luna here, just don't agree that should be used in this debate you're having). I tried the LCHF diet years back and it didn't work for me and I explained why in a few places on this forum. Not everyone can do the exact same thing to manage their diabetes. Just thought I'd make it clear that I don't think I failed at all and the disease has progressed for me.
Click to expand...
Sorry, I did not mean to imply that - you are right, I've oversimplified it too much. I think that's where the autoimmune part comes in. For many people LCHF works, but for those that it doesn't, perhaps it is due to an autoimmune issue. My argument with Luna is that they claim LCHF is unhealthy, although they haven't tried it, and they believe that the only approach to type 2 diabetes management is to follow the current standard of care, which is to eat a low fat high carb diet and go on lots of meds. Of course LCHF is not 100% successful, but the standard high carb low fat diet advice given to type 2s is close to 100% guaranteed to cause type 2 progression. I was told by my diabetes nurse that if I follow her advice I'll be on more and more meds until eventually I'd be on insulin. I believed her, which is why I am not following her (or Luna's) advice. And of course there's more to health than just blood glucose levels. With LCHF I got rid of my NAFLD and have much improved cholesterol numbers. Not long after I was first diagnosed they wanted me on metformin, a statin, and a blood pressure med. The last time I went in there was no mention of needing to be on any of those.
 
luna50 said:
Your English language has internalised all the Latin language with the English suffix.
This is the reason why the English vocabulary is big
Click to expand...
Wrong, It is because English uses language "borrowed" from each of the languages it has contacted, be it Norse, "Romance languages", "North american", Indus languages, Chinese languages.
 
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Also, I go, but in the past tense, I borrow from the verb to wend (I went). So we use different verb on different tenses! Confusing eh!
When we move away from "standard" English, into the local forms, we get into a really interesting "stew"
I prefer to think of the English "family of language" :rolleyes:
 
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ickihun said:
@luna50
I've read the above thousands of times but they don't change the fact my body wants to add weight without extra calories or fat or carbs.
My system want to increase my weight unless I take drugs to hamper it.
Yes I'm thankful to metformin but it doesn't solve the whole problem.

My whole problem is my system want to add weight (too much insulin?)
What is causing the overproduction of insulin when food is limited or stopped (fasting). Therefore food cannot be the only trigger for extra insulin. Can it?
What is triggering my extra insulin to be made, other than food?

Medical journals only cite food for insulin making. Pancreas only insulin producer. Or is it?
If I've used varied diets to manipulate insulin reduction why has none worked to reduce my weight or stop the adding?
Is it not the insulin quality that is processed wrong? Yes (fat cells block insulin)
What is producing the fat cell?
(Fat cells never die, they empty but never die. Plenty of new fat cells can be made and filled/emptied at any time) So can a person have too many fat cells, even empty ones? Can having too many fat cells over consume the organs and systems of the body, even empty ones?
I'm emptying cells but then something triggers for them to be filled again. Is this my bodies way of having no more room to produce new fat cells or infact can I still produce new fat cells from scratch? Only filling up empty ones first or only?
I'm adding weight on a day of consuming the same nutritional imput as another day I'm not. (All calories are not the same)
I agree not all calories are the same. I eat food from different calories but same total amount but still add weight on less calories (my fitnesspal).
Low carb no weight loss either.
Metformin has changed the my fat cells to softer, lighter ones. I can feel it in my stomach fat but no weight loss. How can that be?
Something more is going on in my body other than fat cells filling and emptying. So I conclude..... what is the type2 diabetes I have?
The same as yours???
Click to expand...

Have you investigated by your doctor the problems about the Insulinoma?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulinoma
Do you have hypoglycaemia?
The insulin autoimmune syndrome , also with the name "Hirata syndrome" is a rare and is associated with hypoglycaemia. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8200300
By T2DM insulin is impaired to control the liver production of glucose and the gluconeogenesis and the lipolyse process. Metformin (as you know) is a medicine to do that what insulin can't.
What about your blood pressure?
My T2DM is not like your's. I control it with 8 IE Lantus/day and the medication for Cholesterol and blood pressure. My diet is "Low-Carb" with Carbs between 50 and 130 g/day. I have no food restrictions, i.e. I eat what I like, but with care.
 
luna50 said:
Have you invested by your doctor the problems about the Insulinoma?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulinoma
Do you have hypoglycaemia?
The insulin autoimmune syndrome , also with the name "Hirata syndrome" is a rare and is associated with hypoglycaemia. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8200300
By T2DM insulin is impaired to control the liver production of glucose and the gluconeogenesis and the lipolyse process. Metformin (as you know) is a medicine to do that what insulin can't.
What about your blood pressure?
My T2DM is not like your's. I control it with 8 IE Lantus/day and the medication for Cholesterol and blood pressure. My diet is "Low-Carb" with Carbs between 50 and 130 g/day. I have no food restrictions, i.e. I eat what I like, but with care.
Click to expand...
I'm on 120g carbs now, agreed with dietician. We compromised. It's a start.
I need their co-operation to achieve well controlled type2 with hypothyroidism and pcos and severe insulin resistance.
I have occasional insomnia which I put down to the hypothyroidism. Oh and a naughty toddler.
I've just finished having my family, even thou I'm 45yr old.
I was infertile until metformin bed down and I started ovulating at 35yr old.
I do suffer with high blood pressure which didn't start til I settled into my first pregnancy in 2007. Suffered ever since. Weight related, I guess.
 
My understanding of an autoimmune disease is when the body's own immune cells cannot differentiate some or even all of it's own tissues and responds with an inappropriate immune response resulting in a long list of several diseases. Since the pancreas' beta cells still function in T2DM I would speculate it is not an autoimmune disease. However our understanding of new types of diabetes and better understanding of the causes and research I cannot rule @ickihun's theory it might be. :)
 
ickihun said:
You may be right.
I have had bell's palsy, underactive thyroid and pcos. Now type2 which seems to be progressive no matter what my diet.
Meat and fat only, veg and fish, gi carbs and veg or everything and anything.
I envy diabetics who lose weight, mine moves a few pounds then bounces back to highest weight again.
I tried meal replacements early last year with no affect.
Anorexia (as in loss of appetite) will help me lose weight but I'll still be diabetic!
Click to expand...

Your weight issue maybe one caused by your thyroid issues rather than your diabetes.
My best friend had her thyroid removed last year and is struggling to lose weight. She is a member of a thyroid group and was told that it's amazing she has lost any weight at all because many people with thyroid issues find it pretty impossible. She was advised to give up gluten. I know little about thyroid issues, so would double check this. Maybe look more into your thyroid issue for weight loss.
Good luck x
 
Tes78 said:
Your weight issue maybe one caused by your thyroid issues rather than your diabetes.
My best friend had her thyroid removed last year and is struggling to lose weight. She is a member of a thyroid group and was told that it's amazing she has lost any weight at all because many people with thyroid issues find it pretty impossible. She was advised to give up gluten. I know little about thyroid issues, so would double check this. Maybe look more into your thyroid issue for weight loss.
Good luck x
Click to expand...
@Tes78 your right. Totally. That is why ive posted the thread so we can disect what's going on. Most thyroid disorders are an autoimmune condition and i have other questionable disorders which im wondering if connected.
Maybe i have an autoimmune disorder which is causing all my problems or like you suggest a low carb/gluten free diet is the answer.
A few type2s have hypothyroidism too. And pcos like me. Bell's palsy is not investigated enough due to lack of interest. I have 4 conditions which all contribute to me adding weight or very little temporary weight loss which exhorbitates the insulin resistance. Great eh!
 
That's not good for your weight then, and weight will have an impact on the insulin resistance part of the diabetes in most people. Defiantly give low carb and gluten free a go if you haven't in the past. It might be just what your body needs.
"If you always do what you have always done, you'll always get what you have always got"
Having a change might give your body a little kick start.
I know what being over weight can be like... I'm on the weight loss journey myself. So far going well...
Let me know if these changes help you and we can celebrate your successes :). X
 
Tes78 said:
That's not good for your weight then, and weight will have an impact on the insulin resistance part of the diabetes in most people. Defiantly give low carb and gluten free a go if you haven't in the past. It might be just what your body needs.
"If you always do what you have always done, you'll always get what you have always got"
Having a change might give your body a little kick start.
I know what being over weight can be like... I'm on the weight loss journey myself. So far going well...
Let me know if these changes help you and we can celebrate your successes :). X
Click to expand...
I have experimented on 30g carb lchf diet. Bad cholesterol increased a little so fats needed tweeking.
Interestingly my thyroid function became over-active on the 200mg levothyroxine but I was ill. Dizziness and faint with headaches. I ended up on more high blood pressure tablets so that didnt improve either.
I'm reluctant to do it again but I will. I'm synching myself up for it and stocking cupboards and savings too. A lot more expensive than my current diet.
I'll keep you posted.
And thankyou for reminding me. I try to ignore the thyroid by taking the medication and just getting on. Some cannot ignore their symptoms as they are worse than mine.
 
ickihun said:
I have experimented on 30g carb lchf diet. Bad cholesterol increased a little so fats needed tweeking.
Interestingly my thyroid function became over-active on the 200mg levothyroxine but I was ill. Dizziness and faint with headaches. I ended up on more high blood pressure tablets so that didnt improve either.
I'm reluctant to do it again but I will. I'm synching myself up for it and stocking cupboards and savings too. A lot more expensive than my current diet.
I'll keep you posted.
And thankyou for reminding me. I try to ignore the thyroid by taking the medication and just getting on. Some cannot ignore their symptoms as they are worse than mine.
Click to expand...

I know when going low carb you can get what's known as carb flu, you can feel like rubbish for a few weeks... Maybe that was what you were feeling before? Also if your glucose leaves drop quickly you can get "false hypo's" where you feel hypoglycaemic but your readings are not. It just your body adjusting. I felt tired and had dizzy spells for the first 4-5 weeks going low carb... Now I feel fantastic.
 
I will give it another go. I'll keep you posted.
It isn't easy. I don't know if sustainable for me, but we'll see.
Thank you again. :)
 
ickihun said:
I will give it another go. I'll keep you posted.
It isn't easy. I don't know if sustainable for me, but we'll see.
Thank you again. :)
Click to expand...

It's not easy... I'm 12 weeks in now, I have the occasional craving. I keep most of my cravings under control by having sweet tasting things that are low carb. Sweet things have always been my downfall. I make a low carb cheesecake once a week and much it over a few days, I have a few of the Atkins chocolate bars in the fridge if I really get a chocolate craving. I Like to have cheese strings, scratching's and nuts as snacks which before going low carb were too high in fat to have when dieting, but on this diet are nice. You may find after a few weeks the amount you eat also decreases... Or it did with me.
Just try and keep the meals you have interesting and full of flavor. That will make it easier, because you won't feel like your missing out or deprived.
Let me know how you get on x
 
ickihun said:
I will give it another go. I'll keep you posted.
It isn't easy. I don't know if sustainable for me, but we'll see.
Thank you again. :)
Click to expand...

Ickihun, to be absolutely fair, I don't think I have read every single post in this thread, but looking at the post I have quoted here, I think you are responding to Tes78's comment on low carbing? Whatever it is responding to, I read it that you don't believe you can do it. If that's the case, there is a very high risk of that becoming a self-fulfilling prophesy. If the time isn't right for you to give it another go, then wait until it is.

In some ways, you are fortunate to have a pharmaceutical mix that can allow you some additional choices to those on diet only. I do understand insulin isn't easy, and some of the effects of insulin, including the often cited weight gain or lack of weight loss issue, but at least you have a means of keeping your blook numbers in a safe zone.

In order for any deep down, unwanted change to be sustainable, there must a be a clear and personal benefit to the person making the change. "Being a bit better", or "losing a stone" or whatever is all a bit vague.

Perhaps it could be an idea to try a period of trying to achieve a period of no change, and give yourself a rest from constantly changing and tweaking. That must be exhausting. I'm certainly exhausted reading it all (that's not an insult!). In the last few months I have observed you low carbing, trying to take less insulin and tailor your diet around it, a bit of IF I think, adding canagliflozin, then coming off it, then adding Metformin. In your shoes, I wouldn't have a clue how my body was performing.

If you could achieve a period of stable bloods (either by your own testing, or by lab results), at least you have a proper starting point for your next planned change.

Please don't think this post is a dig at you or me suggesting you're not trying. You are; but maybe a bit too hard. Maybe step back for a couple of weeks, seek stable numbers, stable weight and go from there.
 
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