Is type 2 reversible with Prof Roy Taylor

[VicVik]

I just think it would be wiser for you to carry out your research first, then reveal your findings.

That's my stated intention.

You are correct regarding "snake oil salesman". However these bandits do get customers to buy the most dubious products

There's a special place in hell for them.

Whats best for your dad is far more important and I wish you all the success you can find to help him.

Thank you.

 

[Monty010467]

Hope you have read the threads concerned with RH, it is becoming more common as the condition is understood.
Since diagnosed RH I have lost weight, got more energy and feel great. I have my life back.
As I said in my last post constant small snacks every two to three hours instead of main meals are better for you and low carbing is essential for control.
Get your GP to get you to see an endocrinologist and he will get you all sorts of tests. As well as the haemoglobin, you will have the oral glucose test, mixed meal and a 72 hour fast test. Monitoring your glucose levels is critical. You will discover that some certain low carbs will spike you. Avoid anything that spikes you. The pain is finding something to eat 8 or 9 times a day! I've been eating salads everyday with lots of meats and veg. Home made recipes are on this forum and you will get used to it eventually!!
Any questions ask away!

Hi Nosher,
sorry I haven't been back for a few days Busy, busy, busy. I have read through a lot of the RH threads and I am convinced I at least have most of the symptoms. Had a really weird day today normal muesli breakfast puts me under 4.0 after 2 hrs, today I spiked 18, went for a run for 5 mins which put me back at 8, then after 30mins was having one of those sweaty shaking sessions again, weird!
Anyway my GP still hasn't given me a referral, I am going to try the company medical insurance, whilst it doesn't cover chronic conditions such as T2 it may cover testing to see if I have been miss diagnosed! I will let you know!
In the meantime thanks again for the help it is very much appreciated.

Monty

 

[Southport GP]

So I went along to the talk mentioned earlier on here in Newcastle this evening. Firstly, Roy Taylor is well worth listening to speak even if you don't buy his theory as he is an engaging speaker with a way of making a complicated subject available to a diverse audience.
Basically the talk covered an explanation of the development of type 2, with the loss of up to 50% beta cells by diagnosis which may have occurred over up to 20 years ( although the final fall into diabetic range is rapid and takes about 18 months) fuelled by two viscious cycles in the liver and pancreas involving fat storage and insulin resistance ( this bit was a bit scientific for me but that was the gist of it) as excess calories converted to fat in liver and stored and also deposited in pancreas thus screwing up its ability to deal with glucose in the blood plasma , leading to the rise we see in blood sugar levels. He showed a few slides of the MRI stuff that he uses to look at liver and pancreatic fat levels - about 5% is normal and some dieters went down to 2%
He then looked at how he'd seen the effects of bariatic surgery on BS levels and set out to replicate it with diet.
Points that came out of this were that a VLC diet had a rapid effect on normalising blood glucose levels with people dropping to normal fasting levels within days.
That some consequences of diabetes such as minor retinopathy and CVD were reversed or reduced by this reversal.
That about 2/3rds of people saw reversal. The rest had measurably better BG levels though not reversed.
Initial group had all been diagnosed for less than five years. Subsequent research has focused on long term type2s. Best results found in those under about 6 yrs.
new research being funded by DUK to roll out program in surgeries matched against controls to see of it could be a first line "treatment'
He showed photographs of street scenes from Newcastle from about 40 yrs ago and now and showed graphs to show how the BMI curve has shifted with more people obese and more people in higher range than in a generation earlier. So more people run risk of triggering type 2 if genetically susceptible. This led into a discussion of what he thinks is fundamental issue regarding type 2- namely that of personal fat threshold which he said explains why some folk can have an acceptable BMI but still be diabetic and some fatties never get it. The aim then of his protocol is to get below your PFT and stay there to lower BG and possibly reverse diabetes.
He didn't go into anything about beta cell regeneration which I know has been mentioned on here so reversal is maybe too strong a word and maybe extending life of remaining beta cells through halting the two vicious metabolic cycles maybe be a more long winded way of naming it? The jury is out on that I guess.
There were only a few questions as time was short. What came out there was that going on VLC not essential - just losing the weight to go below PFT is what matters, though of course the quicker it is done the better for the benefits of low blood glucose levels - so he was ok when someone suggested the 5:2 diet as an option. He also said that just cutting calories was ok.. By ditching carbs, reducing meat intake by about 2/3rds and eating loads of veg. He suggested there wasn't a one size diet for all, but did say that more people would lose weight low carbing than low fat dieting. 15kg seems to be about the average magical loss that his group had to reverse diabetes though the loss needed is proportional to starting point. I guess the VLC has the benefit of being quick and finite whereas your GP saying lose weight may not be enough for some folk to do it in time. Also exercise to keep weight stable and other health benefits but it won't lose you enough weight if you are middle aged and very fat! Also he acknowledged that statins increase BS and may push you into diabetic range if already on path but that we should be on them once diagnosed ( I smell some funding there)
So all in all an interesting talk and food for thought.

As a HCP who heard Prof Taylor speak earlier this year at a DUK conference I would say that you have an excellent summary there. Prof Taylor is a charming man and last year went out of his way to help me in my low-carb research. He has thrown a lot of light on the role of glucose in producing fatty liver and pancreas and so type two diabetes.
I have been trying to help folk loose weight as a GP since 1986 and in my early days experimented with the VLC approach -the trouble was its hard way to live and patients could not wait to get off it -and then despite good intentions they gained weight and ended up where they began. I have known many patients 'yo-yo' like this over the years.
I suspect the challenge for Roy Taylor's patients will be holding onto that weight loss long term.
As a patient explained to me 'a diet is something you are on -and will one day come off. The low carb diet is a way of life that involves enjoying healthy food and is potentially quite sustainable on the long term.' I agree and that is why this is an approach I have hopes for.

 

[cold ethyl]

As a HCP who heard Prof Taylor speak earlier this year at a DUK conference I would say that you have an excellent summary there. Prof Taylor is a charming man and last year went out of his way to help me in my low-carb research. He has thrown a lot of light on the role of glucose in producing fatty liver and pancreas and so type two diabetes.
I have been trying to help folk loose weight as a GP since 1986 and in my early days experimented with the VLC approach -the trouble was its hard way to live and patients could not wait to get off it -and then despite good intentions they gained weight and ended up where they began. I have known many patients 'yo-yo' like this over the years.
I suspect the challenge for Roy Taylor's patients will be holding onto that weight loss long term.
As a patient explained to me 'a diet is something you are on -and will one day come off. The low carb diet is a way of life that involves enjoying healthy food and is potentially quite sustainable on the long term.' I agree and that is why this is an approach I have hopes for.

Thank you. I agree with you that the VLC on its own isn't enough. Just because you " reverse" your diabetes by weight loss doesn't mean that you can then go back to eating what got you there in first place. I suspect that what is needed is a two pronged attack with adequate support from HC providers- so it is made clear to newly diagnosed that reversal is possible and support given to do this either through VLC ( which some people may like as it shows rapid results and for some folk just not having to be near real food may help in beginning) or through low carbing. Taylor himself said that VLC was only for some and that once weight lost, it was important to keep it off and that's where being more active helps. I personally think that low carbing is the better approach in that it is sustainable long term, helps you with portion control which so many of us obviously lacked before diagnosis ( and as a nation as a whole tbh looking at the slides he showed.) and fits in with family life.

 

[douglas99]

The advantage of the VLCD, particularly the shakes diet, is it (allegedly) weans you of the food, or the excess of food, you were eating before. Then a structured approach to re-introduce a reasonable portion of food, as a lifestyle diet.
There should be no intention simply to cut the patients loose, and gorge on day 1 of week 9.

I have the luxury of going into the diet already having reduced my intake from an excess to a sustainable amount, so possibly am in a better place mentally to stay off too much food, but then again, I am noticing hunger occasionally, so it is a regime that does require effort.

 

[issyben]

Hi
I am fairly new to this forum and actually it was here that I first heard of Dr Taylor's studies to reverse diabetes. I immediately went to look for his studies and I have been on an 700/800 calories for 30 days now. I will share my experiences with all of you in case it helps someone else.

When I went on the diet I was on three doses of Metmorfin and I was having readings of 7.5 to 8.5 in the mornings before breakfast. Readings of over 7 all through the day, but the worst was always the morning.

I kept my Metmorfin for the first week and my readings went dramatically down with. I lowered my Metmorfin dose to two a day and then one per day and my readings kept being low. Finally three weeks ago I stopped the Metmorfin and my readings have been 4.8 to 5.3 in the morning and not higher than 6.4 two hours after meals. I had never experienced this levels since I was diagnosed late in 2012 with a level in the morning of 17 and an A1c of 14.

I was 87 Kg and I am now 80 Kg. I did not do any exercise with the exception of taking my Rottweiler pup for a walk and training on Saturdays. Dr Taylor specifically says not to do extra exercise due to the low caloric intake. I have been feeling great.

My diet has been:

A shake of Isowhey Diabetic Formula in the morning made out with 250 ml of Almond Milk;
A green salad with egg, fish or meat with a slice of bread from a special bakery in Queensland, Australia (the slice of bread has less than 4 carbs and it is delicious);
Another shake at around 3 pm as I am at work and feel hungry by then; and
Another slice of bread with salad not later than 6:00 pm

I intend to continue for the full 8 weeks and maybe continue with a bit more calories until I reach 73/75 kg.

I will keep you posted as to the final results.

 

[douglas99]

Hi
I am fairly new to this forum and actually it was here that I first heard of Dr Taylor's studies to reverse diabetes. I immediately went to look for his studies and I have been on an 700/800 calories for 30 days now. I will share my experiences with all of you in case it helps someone else.

When I went on the diet I was on three doses of Metmorfin and I was having readings of 7.5 to 8.5 in the mornings before breakfast. Readings of over 7 all through the day, but the worst was always the morning.

I kept my Metmorfin for the first week and my readings went dramatically down with. I lowered my Metmorfin dose to two a day and then one per day and my readings kept being low. Finally three weeks ago I stopped the Metmorfin and my readings have been 4.8 to 5.3 in the morning and not higher than 6.4 two hours after meals. I had never experienced this levels since I was diagnosed late in 2012 with a level in the morning of 17 and an A1c of 14.

I was 87 Kg and I am now 80 Kg. I did not do any exercise with the exception of taking my Rottweiler pup for a walk and training on Saturdays. Dr Taylor specifically says not to do extra exercise due to the low caloric intake. I have been feeling great.

My diet has been:

A shake of Isowhey Diabetic Formula in the morning made out with 250 ml of Almond Milk;
A green salad with egg, fish or meat with a slice of bread from a special bakery in Queensland, Australia (the slice of bread has less than 4 carbs and it is delicious);
Another shake at around 3 pm as I am at work and feel hungry by then; and
Another slice of bread with salad not later than 6:00 pm

I intend to continue for the full 8 weeks and maybe continue with a bit more calories until I reach 73/75 kg.

I will keep you posted as to the final results.

Is that a high protein, low carb, low fat version you're doing?

 

[Lamont D]

Hi Nosher,
sorry I haven't been back for a few days Busy, busy, busy. I have read through a lot of the RH threads and I am convinced I at least have most of the symptoms. Had a really weird day today normal muesli breakfast puts me under 4.0 after 2 hrs, today I spiked 18, went for a run for 5 mins which put me back at 8, then after 30mins was having one of those sweaty shaking sessions again, weird!
Anyway my GP still hasn't given me a referral, I am going to try the company medical insurance, whilst it doesn't cover chronic conditions such as T2 it may cover testing to see if I have been miss diagnosed! I will let you know!
In the meantime thanks again for the help it is very much appreciated.

Monty

My consultant says something like, like diabetes RH has multiple differing symptoms. Mood swings and eye bluriness just a couple. I had a list of a foolscap piece of writing paper full, which I ticked most of them off after new meds (sitagliptin) and low carbing. Eating small meals regularly so my BSLs don't hypo.
The last time I had a hypo was after an OGTTs,
Muesli can and did spike me, too many carbs and dried fruit??. There is too much refined sugars in muesli.
Try and find something else to breakfast. Bacon and eggs or full fat Greek yoghurt with a few berries. A very small bowl of porridge, no milk, or I do have have once a week a small bowl of all bran. Have a piece of Burgen bread toasted with butter on!
Do be careful when exercising or working, dizzy spells or light headedness means you need to eat
And drink lots of water to keep hydrated. Do you constantly feel warm? Get frustrated easily? Forget important things? Sleep disruption? Peeing a lot?
And there's more!
If you have seen the symptom list, make notes of yours along with your BSLs especially hypos and hypers. Keep a food diary and test. Write it all down. The next time you see your GP it will help him and then you should get a referral. It took me to have a hypo in my gps office to get mine. And still I had to keep fight my way through all doubters that I had this condition.
Don't give up mate. Keep at your GP! It's your health. Not his!

 

[issyben]

My consultant says something like, like diabetes RH has multiple differing symptoms. Mood swings and eye bluriness just a couple. I had a list of a foolscap piece of writing paper full, which I ticked most of them off after new meds (sitagliptin) and low carbing. Eating small meals regularly so my BSLs don't hypo.
The last time I had a hypo was after an OGTTs,
Muesli can and did spike me, too many carbs and dried fruit??. There is too much refined sugars in muesli.
Try and find something else to breakfast. Bacon and eggs or full fat Greek yoghurt with a few berries. A very small bowl of porridge, no milk, or I do have have once a week a small bowl of all bran. Have a piece of Burgen bread toasted with butter on!
Do be careful when exercising or working, dizzy spells or light headedness means you need to eat
And drink lots of water to keep hydrated. Do you constantly feel warm? Get frustrated easily? Forget important things? Sleep disruption? Peeing a lot?
And there's more!
If you have seen the symptom list, make notes of yours along with your BSLs especially hypos and hypers. Keep a food diary and test. Write it all down. The next time you see your GP it will help him and then you should get a referral. It took me to have a hypo in my gps office to get mine. And still I had to keep fight my way through all doubters that I had this condition.
Don't give up mate. Keep at your GP! It's your health. Not his!

 

[robert65ferguson]

Just watched Prof Taylor's lecture and found it very interesting and encouraging. If I understood him correctly he seemed to be talking about reversing the impact of T2 and arresting it's progression. He made the point that a continued disciplined approach was needed and that our predisposition to the effects of T2 remained unaltered. Like people recovering from the effects of addiction we are only a few meals away from ground zero even if we are successful in following the regime which he advocated. Nevertheless for anyone with the self discipline to follow his advice there seemed to be only positives.

 

[issyben]

Yes, the shakes have 2.8 gr of carbs and the milk I think it is 2 to 4 carbs.

The bread has less than 4 carbs per slice. Then I only have low fat proteins and vegetables.

 

[AndBreathe]

As a HCP who heard Prof Taylor speak earlier this year at a DUK conference I would say that you have an excellent summary there. Prof Taylor is a charming man and last year went out of his way to help me in my low-carb research. He has thrown a lot of light on the role of glucose in producing fatty liver and pancreas and so type two diabetes.
I have been trying to help folk loose weight as a GP since 1986 and in my early days experimented with the VLC approach -the trouble was its hard way to live and patients could not wait to get off it -and then despite good intentions they gained weight and ended up where they began. I have known many patients 'yo-yo' like this over the years.
I suspect the challenge for Roy Taylor's patients will be holding onto that weight loss long term.
As a patient explained to me 'a diet is something you are on -and will one day come off. The low carb diet is a way of life that involves enjoying healthy food and is potentially quite sustainable on the long term.' I agree and that is why this is an approach I have hopes for.

I didn't do "The Newcastle", and the timing of my diagnosis would have made it tricky, even if I had known of its existence, but I think the initial approach I adopted, almost by mistake, kick started the weight loss I was able to sustain. I see The Newcastle as a potential creator of of "the carrot" to inspire progress. It might be hard, but it is pretty difficult to ignore the buoying effect of the reduced blood scores in someone newly diagnosed and fearful for their future. Once that is established, it it probably easier, by virtue of motivation, to find a maintenance regime? Perhaps? It is, however, very heartening to learn it's the loss, not the method that appears critical to success.

Bearing in mind Prof Taylor's 70% success rate, for recently diagnosed participants, don't you think many would give this a go at the point of diagnosis? That 70% figure would certainly have been extremely seductive to me.

 

[pavlovsdog]

My consultant says something like, like diabetes RH has multiple differing symptoms. Mood swings and eye bluriness just a couple. I had a list of a foolscap piece of writing paper full, which I ticked most of them off after new meds (sitagliptin) and low carbing. Eating small meals regularly so my BSLs don't hypo.
The last time I had a hypo was after an OGTTs,
Muesli can and did spike me, too many carbs and dried fruit??. There is too much refined sugars in muesli.
Try and find something else to breakfast. Bacon and eggs or full fat Greek yoghurt with a few berries. A very small bowl of porridge, no milk, or I do have have once a week a small bowl of all bran. Have a piece of Burgen bread toasted with butter on!
Do be careful when exercising or working, dizzy spells or light headedness means you need to eat
And drink lots of water to keep hydrated. Do you constantly feel warm? Get frustrated easily? Forget important things? Sleep disruption? Peeing a lot?
And there's more!
If you have seen the symptom list, make notes of yours along with your BSLs especially hypos and hypers. Keep a food diary and test. Write it all down. The next time you see your GP it will help him and then you should get a referral. It took me to have a hypo in my gps office to get mine. And still I had to keep fight my way through all doubters that I had this condition.
Don't give up mate. Keep at your GP! It's your health. Not his!

Hi @nosher8355 what's that about always feeling warm? I'm always too hot, cant tolerate warm rooms etc and have massive rows at work for putting the air con on!

 

[Lamont D]

Hi @pavlovsdog
I believe I would call it my core temperature.
It's in cold temps that it was prevalent as I would hardly feel the cold, in the warmth of summer, even abroard (in Greece) I was comfortable in hot conditions.
Since my loss of weight and no hypos I am feeling the cold terribly.
Wether it's me getting old or what I'm not sure, I couldn't even imagine why you don't like hot weather!

 

[pavlovsdog]

Hi @pavlovsdog
I believe I would call it my core temperature.
It's in cold temps that it was prevalent as I would hardly feel the cold, in the warmth of summer, even abroard (in Greece) I was comfortable in hot conditions.
Since my loss of weight and no hypos I am feeling the cold terribly.
Wether it's me getting old or what I'm not sure, I couldn't even imagine why you don't like hot weather!

I've never been able to tolerate heat tbh, even when I was young, healthy and fit! Much prefer the cold. I have an underactive thyroid, and feeling cold was the only symptom I didn't have

 

[Lamont D]

I've never been able to tolerate heat tbh, even when I was young, healthy and fit! Much prefer the cold. I have an underactive thyroid, and feeling cold was the only symptom I didn't have

Never had my thyroid checked! Mind you my quack(s) never thought that I was anything but T2!
I suppose it could have been recurring hypos!
I've had my thermals on all week and my feet up the chimney when relaxing, and it's not been that cold!
My big relaxation is sitting reading in the garden in the sun. Have always loved sunbathing.
In the past I've asked my docs to send me somewhere hot on the NHS as I'm sure I have SAD. For some reason I can't fathom, they keep turning me down!!
Go figure?
Seriously I always feel better when the sun is shining and warm!
Are you fair skinned @pavlovsdog?
I have a tan all year round!

 

[izzzi]

Never had my thyroid checked! Mind you my quack(s) never thought that I was anything but T2!
I suppose it could have been recurring hypos!
I've had my thermals on all week and my feet up the chimney when relaxing, and it's not been that cold!
My big relaxation is sitting reading in the garden in the sun. Have always loved sunbathing.
In the past I've asked my docs to send me somewhere hot on the NHS as I'm sure I have SAD. For some reason I can't fathom, they keep turning me down!!
Go figure?
Seriously I always feel better when the sun is shining and warm!
Are you fair skinned @pavlovsdog?
I have a tan all year round!

My wife reckons I always feel cold because I sit all day on this laptop doing nothing,when I can get up and do some moving around etc;. "Stupid Woman" sorry love I was just speaking to the lap top.

 

[pavlovsdog]

Never had my thyroid checked! Mind you my quack(s) never thought that I was anything but T2!
I suppose it could have been recurring hypos!
I've had my thermals on all week and my feet up the chimney when relaxing, and it's not been that cold!
My big relaxation is sitting reading in the garden in the sun. Have always loved sunbathing.
In the past I've asked my docs to send me somewhere hot on the NHS as I'm sure I have SAD. For some reason I can't fathom, they keep turning me down!!
Go figure?
Seriously I always feel better when the sun is shining and warm!
Are you fair skinned @pavlovsdog?
I have a tan all year round!

Yes, @nosher8355 I am fair skinned, generally go red in the sun, then white again! I don't think your request to be sent somewhere hot is too much to ask, your GP sounds very unreasonable ;-)
Perversely, I do feel better when the sun is shining and I can walk round without a coat on - less stuff to carry!
I think Gps tend to be a bit single minded when it comes to diagnoses, once they've labelled you with summat they seem to attribute everything to it!

 

[CollieBoy]

I know what you mean!
I am tempted to tell my practice nurse that I have grown a third testicle , just to see if she tries to say "that is not unknown with D"

 

[cold ethyl]

I know what you mean!
I am tempted to tell my practice nurse that I have grown a third testicle , just to see if she tries to say "that is not unknown with D"

Imagine having a chronic disease and chronic anxiety.. If it's not one, it's the other. I used to reckon I could go into surgery with a great white attached to my leg and they still say " it's just your nerves and you need to try a bit harder to ignore it."