Is type 2 reversible with Prof Roy Taylor

[Susiespearish]

Isn't the aim to get the body to use fat as it's fuel ? I just can't understand how drinking a shake with 23 grms of sugar and 48% carbs can be good for a diabetic.I've always pooh poohed ketosis but in a last ditch to avoid insulin and lose more weight I'm going to give it a try again.
Especially after watching this video posted by Lucy ! https://www.youtube.com/embed/TR8rc_AF6XU?feature=oembed

 

[douglas99]

Isn't the aim to get the body to use fat as it's fuel ? I just can't understand how drinking a shake with 23 grms of sugar and 48% carbs can be good for a diabetic.I've always pooh poohed ketosis but in a last ditch to avoid insulin and lose more weight I'm going to give it a try .
Especially after watching this video posted by Lucy ! https://www.youtube.com/embed/TR8rc_AF6XU?feature=oembed

I'm on the diet at the moment, the Tesco shake has a slightly higher sugar though. Fasting BG is down to the 4's, the shake tends to raise me by 2.5 after half an hour.
The rest of my meals are veg.
So minimal fat and protein.
Losing weight well, and stopped my diabetes meds.

 

[Susiespearish]

I'm on the diet at the moment, the Tesco shake has a slightly higher sugar though. Fasting BG is down to the 4's, the shake tends to raise me by 2.5 after half an hour.
The rest of my meals are veg.
So minimal fat and protein.
Losing weight well, and stopped my diabetes meds.

So are you having just one shake a day and then veg Douglas ?

See I've cut my calories hugely but it still isn't having any effect on my BG .I'm close to losing three stone since I started and if anything my BG has gone up so in desperation thought I'd try for ketosis .

That video makes sense .We don't need carbs to live.

 

[douglas99]

So are you having just one shake a day and then veg Douglas ?

See I've cut my calories hugely but it still isn't having any effect on my BG .I'm close to losing three stone since I started and if anything my BG has gone up so in desperation thought I'd try for ketosis .

That video makes sense .We don't need carbs to live.

Usually a shake for breakfast, mostly a shake for lunch, although I have trimmed the calories back to a can of weightwatchers soup sometimes, veg for dinner, (again as a stew or soup), and the odd apple, or tomato, lettuce leaves etc for an occasional snack. 3L fizzy water a day, and coffee. 600 to 800 calories a day, mostly carbs, minimal fat and some protein.
But I was reasonably ok with carbs to start with, and my last diet and weight loss seemed to make a good start into reducing my BG.
I don't know whether or not we 'need' carbs, I found it was far more convenient with them though.

 

[Susiespearish]

Usually a shake for breakfast, mostly a shake for lunch, although I have trimmed the calories back to a can of weightwatchers soup sometimes, veg for dinner, (again as a stew or soup), and the odd apple, or tomato, lettuce leaves etc for an occasional snack. 3L fizzy water a day, and coffee. 600 to 800 calories a day, mostly carbs, minimal fat and some protein.
But I was reasonably ok with carbs to start with, and my last diet and weight loss seemed to make a good start into reducing my BG.
I don't know whether or not we 'need' carbs, I found it was far more convenient with them though.

Well it's clearly working for you Will give this a go if I find the no carbs hard .Any weight loss is good and I know potatoes don't spike me at all in moderation.

 

[cold ethyl]

The shakes were really just for ease of research I think,, everyone had the same things plus a small portion leafy veg. I guess you could make your 800 cals up however you fancied so some low cal soup and even an egg with asparagus dippers?
I'd not be rushing to try it yet Susie if you have other ongoing issues. I'm no Dr but your lack of control is more likely a result of the adrenal problem than directly down to diet.

 

[Susiespearish]

The shakes were really just for ease of research I think,, everyone had the same things plus a small portion leafy veg. I guess you could make your 800 cals up however you fancied so some low cal soup and even an egg with asparagus dippers?
I'd not be rushing to try it yet Susie if you have other ongoing issues. I'm no Dr but your lack of control is more likely a result of the adrenal problem than directly down to diet.

I'm just hoping that by continuing to lose weight things might improve all around Cold Ethyl .At the moment my BP is as much if not more important than any other problem and weight loss can only help and I need something quickly

 

[cold ethyl]

I'm just hoping that by continuing to lose weight things might improve all around Cold Ethyl .At the moment my BP is as much if not more important than any other problem and weight loss can only help and I need something quickly

Ok. If be wanting to check with my Dr before I started the regime given you have other ongoing issues.just to be on safe side. You aren't hugely overweight if I remember correctly from other thread. I think that you are in a catch 22 situation as your BP will be affected by the adrenal issue and in turn you mentioned a reluctance to treat because of your elevated BP. I hope the endo has some ideas when you see them.

 

[douglas99]

The shakes were really just for ease of research I think,, everyone had the same things plus a small portion leafy veg. I guess you could make your 800 cals up however you fancied so some low cal soup and even an egg with asparagus dippers?
I'd not be rushing to try it yet Susie if you have other ongoing issues. I'm no Dr but your lack of control is more likely a result of the adrenal problem than directly down to diet.

It's an odd subject really.
The weight losses claimed in the study aren't spectacular, there are many people on here that have seen the same results, if not better, on LCHF.
But the Newcastle diet is the only one that has been followed up, and claims to have reversed diabetes.
I would guess there are a few differences somewhere.
Certainly the Newcastle diet is a rapid weight loss, and the pancreas was still stimulated by the carbs during the loss.
I've no idea of the science, but;
The soup would be ok I guess, as it's one of the things they recommend you do with the veg anyway, and I have a few tins of weightwatchers soup ready anyway.
Not tried the egg, it's a fairly low calorie, but reasonably high fat, and my issue with that is it's caloric value, so it's physically a smaller amount of food. It's also a high cholesterol food, and I've no idea if this would affect the liver, as its supposed to be producing cholesterol as part of it's fat burning.
The second wave can try a modified version I'm sure.

Mind you, the other thing to bear in mind is I don't think many on the LCHF diet have properly weaned themselves back onto carbs, which I can believe take several days, and really tested the results.

It would be an interesting comparison, and one Prof Taylor could follow up on hopefully.

 

[cold ethyl]

It's an odd subject really.
The weight losses claimed in the study aren't spectacular, there are many people on here that have seen the same results, if not better, on LCHF.
But the Newcastle diet is the only one that has been followed up, and claims to have reversed diabetes.
I would guess there are a few differences somewhere.
Certainly the Newcastle diet is a rapid weight loss, and the pancreas was still stimulated by the carbs during the loss.
I've no idea of the science, but;
The soup would be ok I guess, as it's one of the things they recommend you do with the veg anyway, and I have a few tins of weightwatchers soup ready anyway.
Not tried the egg, it's a fairly low calorie, but reasonably high fat, and my issue with that is it's caloric value, so it's physically a smaller amount of food. It's also a high cholesterol food, and I've no idea if this would affect the liver, as its supposed to be producing cholesterol as part of it's fat burning.
The second wave can try a modified version I'm sure.

Mind you, the other thing to bear in mind is I don't think many on the LCHF diet have properly weaned themselves back onto carbs, which I can believe take several days, and really tested the results.

It would be an interesting comparison, and one Prof Taylor could follow up on hopefully.

I agree there's a lot more research needs doing and I think the large scale research programme that DUK is funding with the protocol offered in I think 140 surgeries in UK with matched controls who don't use it but are followed more regularly than current diabetic patients will go a long way to answering some questions. The aim of his research initially was to find out what aspect of bariatric surgery caused the reversal as some believed the surgery caused gut function and hormones to change and he wasn't convinced by this. As you say, many low carbing will have lost equal or more weight but maybe there is something special about the rapidity of the drop in weight and the forcing of the liver and pancreas to burn their fat stores- I thought this, but then he seems now to be saying that it is the weight loss by any means that is turning the wheels in reverse. Interestingly last night I read a very similar talk he gave in 2012 ( Banting lecture ) and he suggests that beta cell function is in fact not destroyed in type2 but is inhibited- sort of as though they go into hibernation and are awakened by the weight loss. That is what I am hoping my weight loss by low carbing will have done though not all will reawaken enough to have a non diabetic response to carbs. I think I'd like a bit more information before I embraced carbs fully again, not only from a diabetic perspective as they are what made me gain weight in first place. I'd also be interested to see what a non diabetic really runs at after high carb meal.

 

[Susiespearish]

I agree there's a lot more research needs doing and I think the large scale research programme that DUK is funding with the protocol offered in I think 140 surgeries in UK with matched controls who don't use it but are followed more regularly than current diabetic patients will go a long way to answering some questions. The aim of his research initially was to find out what aspect of bariatric surgery caused the reversal as some believed the surgery caused gut function and hormones to change and he wasn't convinced by this. As you say, many low carbing will have lost equal or more weight but maybe there is something special about the rapidity of the drop in weight and the forcing of the liver and pancreas to burn their fat stores- I thought this, but then he seems now to be saying that it is the weight loss by any means that is turning the wheels in reverse. Interestingly last night I read a very similar talk he gave in 2012 ( Banting lecture ) and he suggests that beta cell function is in fact not destroyed in type2 but is inhibited- sort of as though they go into hibernation and are awakened by the weight loss. That is what I am hoping my weight loss by low carbing will have done though not all will reawaken enough to have a non diabetic response to carbs. I think I'd like a bit more information before I embraced carbs fully again, not only from a diabetic perspective as they are what made me gain weight in first place. I'd also be interested to see what a non diabetic really runs at after high carb meal.

I can answer the last one cold ethyl.I took my husbands(non diabetic) readings after quite a few very high carb meals and he had spikes of up to 13.5 on one occasion but it came down rapidly and the GP ran an HbAc1 and it was perfectly normal .The rest of the time he was usually below 6 before and in between meals .

 

[douglas99]

I agree there's a lot more research needs doing and I think the large scale research programme that DUK is funding with the protocol offered in I think 140 surgeries in UK with matched controls who don't use it but are followed more regularly than current diabetic patients will go a long way to answering some questions. The aim of his research initially was to find out what aspect of bariatric surgery caused the reversal as some believed the surgery caused gut function and hormones to change and he wasn't convinced by this. As you say, many low carbing will have lost equal or more weight but maybe there is something special about the rapidity of the drop in weight and the forcing of the liver and pancreas to burn their fat stores- I thought this, but then he seems now to be saying that it is the weight loss by any means that is turning the wheels in reverse. Interestingly last night I read a very similar talk he gave in 2012 ( Banting lecture ) and he suggests that beta cell function is in fact not destroyed in type2 but is inhibited- sort of as though they go into hibernation and are awakened by the weight loss. That is what I am hoping my weight loss by low carbing will have done though not all will reawaken enough to have a non diabetic response to carbs. I think I'd like a bit more information before I embraced carbs fully again, not only from a diabetic perspective as they are what made me gain weight in first place. I'd also be interested to see what a non diabetic really runs at after high carb meal.

I've seen my daughter go to 8 or 9, after a day on haribo's and donuts (age 21)
My wife can get into 7's
Others I've tested suggest the 7.8 is a reasonable assumption after a meal.

 

[cold ethyl]

I can answer the last one cold ethyl.I took my husbands(non diabetic) readings after quite a few very high carb meals and he had spikes of up to 13.5 on one occasion but it came down rapidly and the GP ran an HbAc1 and it was perfectly normal .The rest of the time he was usually below 6 before and in between meals .

I think I've become a bit afraid of spiking tbh. I don't like to see above 6.5 on my metre at two hrs , preferably under 6. The few occasions I've been a bit higher I've retested at 2 1/2 or 3 and I'm back at 5.6 so maybe I need to accept a bigger leeway sometimes? I do think that I'll continue to low carb as is has had other health benefits but it would be nice sometimes to just have what everyone else is having if out and about.

 

[cold ethyl]

A day on haribos and donuts sounds wonderful. As does being 21 again.

 

[Susiespearish]

A day on haribos and donuts sounds wonderful. As does being 21 again.

There's no justice .My husband can down packet after packet of sweets daily and he never puts on weight or seems to have any comeback.I was surprised to notice potatoes don't spike me at all so I can have the odd jacket and thoroughly enjoy it .

 

[douglas99]

I think I've become a bit afraid of spiking tbh. I don't like to see above 6.5 on my metre at two hrs , preferably under 6. The few occasions I've been a bit higher I've retested at 2 1/2 or 3 and I'm back at 5.6 so maybe I need to accept a bigger leeway sometimes? I do think that I'll continue to low carb as is has had other health benefits but it would be nice sometimes to just have what everyone else is having if out and about.

I think everyone I've tested has spiked, some about 7.8, some up to, all drop below again.
As do I.
I eat carbs, I sometimes have no choice but to eat as others, and so long as my figures are good, my HbA1c is low, I have no complications, I'm not going to chase the spikes down, or worry about them.
That is one of the main reasons I prefer to keep carbs in my diet, I don't want to find I react badly to them if it's the only food on offer, as it is a fact you have to re-adjust to eating them.
But that doesn't mean I'll push the numbers up, I like a low number, but it's not going to interfere with my life.
It doesn't mean I don't like seeing the 6's either, or that I won't get on the treadmill if I'm at risk of going higher.
It's just all about balance to me.

 

[Susiespearish]

@cold ethyl if I showed you my meter readings we would be treating you for a coronary .I dream of single figures

 

[cold ethyl]

I think everyone I've tested has spiked, some about 7.8, some up to, all drop below again.
As do I.
I eat carbs, I sometimes have no choice but to eat as others, and so long as my figures are good, my HbA1c is low, I have no complications, I'm not going to chase the spikes down, or worry about them.
That is one of the main reasons I prefer to keep carbs in my diet, I don't want to find I react badly to them if it's the only food on offer, as it is a fact you have to re-adjust to eating them.
But that doesn't mean I'll push the numbers up, I like a low number, but it's not going to interfere with my life.
It doesn't mean I don't like seeing the 6's either, or that I won't get on the treadmill if I'm at risk of going higher.
It's just all about balance to me.

I use my exercise bike much the same way.. I'll have a few wholemeal chips ( oven baked with skin potato wedges) and then do 20 minutes at 1 hr to bring me down. It's really only spuds I miss as bread and pasta have other adverse effects so best forgotten about - I may have a small jacket spud soon, just to see. It's all about finding a balance and at the minute I'm happier not eating many carbs as it's shifting the weight really well. I agree that sometimes we can get caught up in getting the numbers down lower and lower at the risk of inducing stress and making life bloomin hard for ourselves. I'd like to get my HbA1c down to non- diabetic levels if not by next test , certainly one after, if possible and reduce Metformin. It is good to have goals, but I have to remind myself not to get too obsessed and to let them become own goals.

 

[cold ethyl]

@cold ethyl if I showed you my meter readings we would be treating you for a coronary .I dream of single figures

Oh dear. I know it must seem like I'm moaning. Some of it comes from my anxiety disorder- I just want one less thing to feed my health anxiety! I feel out of control in so many aspects of my health that there's a tendency to become focused on tight control in those areas I can deal with.

 

[Susiespearish]

Oh dear. I know it must seem like I'm moaning. Some of it comes from my anxiety disorder- I just want one less thing to feed my health anxiety! I feel out of control in so many aspects of my health that there's a tendency to become focused on tight control in those areas I can deal with.

I think it's perfectly understandable and not moaning at all !! We are being asked to watch something that could seriously effect our health so it can become a bit of an obsession.It's why I stepped away from the forum for a while despite all the wonderful advice I was getting .I was getting too involved in all the testing and diet worrying about it too much .When i needed advice on my likely insulin future it was the first place I came.
There has to be balance as Douglas said .I think we need to test at first and then step back and limit it to a couple of times a day .