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It has been said before but.......

I just couldn't not, sorry...

thebabycheeses said:
It's about low HbA1c AND low insulin levels, Kegstore!

Abnormal Insulin levels do the damage too, not just high blood glucose.
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I genuinely didn't know that, proves you can learn something new every day. But I would counter by saying I've never eaten a vast quantity of carbs and so don't (think) I have ever taken large quantities of insulin. I rarely eat more than around 100g of carbs each day (but I do enjoy that which I do) so my insulin requirements are not huge. Always been like that. Must be a medical anomaly... :?

thebabycheeses said:
P.S. You're a long way from dangerous territory if you stick with this forum!
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No love I'm already there, I'll send you a postcard! :)

deadwood2 said:
Isn't the disease itself enough to deal with, without falling out about what appears to be degrees of the same advice?

Especially when there doesn't appear to be a "one size fits all" approach?

Maybe we need a new forum - "Let's all fall out about it".. where we can can put all the bile and nastiness and competing theories...

You vs me, us against the rest, you me & the rest against the world, etc...
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I agree Dave, but don't worry and thanks for your concern, I have fairly thick skin! :wink:
 
kegstore said:
I genuinely didn't know that, proves you can learn something new every day. But I would counter by saying I've never eaten a vast quantity of carbs and so don't (think) I have ever taken large quantities of insulin. I rarely eat more than around 100g of carbs each day (but I do enjoy that which I do) so my insulin requirements are not huge. Always been like that. Must be a medical anomaly...
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Hi kegstore,

Unfortunately high insulin levels are responsible for many problems, which is why it is beneficial to both type 1s and type 2s to reduce their insulin need. This link gives information about some of the risks
http://www.healingdaily.com/detoxificat ... nsulin.htm
but if you want a full list try googling "elevated insulin levels".
 
First of all; what a fantastic topic this has been; with all the high drama and low spelling.

I have really enjoyed reading this and have learned a lot; particularly the high insulin point, which makes a great deal of sense.

I've got to say to Kegstore though; surely you are a walking advert for how carbohydrate will mess us up? Why not do a low carb thing for 3 months and see what happens to your HBA1c? What have you got to lose?

I've just got back in the saddle with a nice and low carb diet, after a bit of carbohydrate creep, and my blood sugars, weight loss general health have all improved markedly.

Whilst people, of course, have different metabolic responses to carbohydrate the fundamental point must remain surely that as diabetics we are unable to cope with 'normal' levels of carbohyrdate and so ought to avoid the stuff especially as there is no evidence that a high protein / high fat diet does you any harm at all?
 
Dennis many thanks for the link on high insulin levels :wink:.

Dillinger said:
First of all; what a fantastic topic this has been; with all the high drama and low spelling.

I have really enjoyed reading this and have learned a lot; particularly the high insulin point, which makes a great deal of sense.
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I'm in complete agreement with these sentiments.

Dillinger said:
I've got to say to Kegstore though; surely you are a walking advert for how carbohydrate will mess us up? Why not do a low carb thing for 3 months and see what happens to your HBA1c? What have you got to lose?
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I'm not sure about that though! Looking at the low carb guidelines elsewhere on the forum I'm already in the "liberal" category (90-130) with regard to daily intake, without making a conscious effort to be so, and definitely towards the lower end of the scale. However I'm always interested to explore new possibilities, and will view this one quite seriously. But I still think I'm a medical anomaly in some respects :D.
 
Absolutely spot on about the elevated insulin levels there chaps.
It's worth a thread of its very own I reckon. Might open a few eyes?

fergus
 
How much credence should we be putting on the HbA1c’s figure to whether we are well controlled or not?


I can see with T2 diabetes that this figure is more of an indicator and reflective of over all control and guidance to when further action input is required etc, as there does tend to be less viability, fluctuations that can mask the actual HbA1c test...

With T1 diabetes it is pretty easy to gain what could be considered to be a reasonable HbA1c of 6.5%, but if you looked at the day to day control this would tell a totally different story than the suggested HbA1c is telling.

In both types within these percentages that could actually be quite a wide fluctuation in range of control you have… And thoughts are now turning, to what is more likely to cause more damage and give poorer long term outcomes.

Is a slightly higher HbA1c that has a tight range and minimum fluctuations than a lower HbA1c that has a loser range of control with greater fluctuations? The medical profession is starting to lean towards the later as being more harmful to a individuals out come…

This theory would actually explain why a person who has continually achieved a 6.5% ended up with a worse outcome than the person who had the 8% HbA1c control…

So to rely on the HbA1c totally as the be all of and end all of good/bad control really should stay back in the days that home monitoring wasn’t available, and the HbA1c’s blood test was the only way to attempt to determine how an individual was doing, what further input etc might be required and what was the likely out come for that individual long term…

Now, I think that all diabetics should be monitoring there day to day results and mainly working from these, the only part the HbA1c should play, is to compare this result with the data collected from the meter, to see if you have good tight range control or lose range control, then you work on your control from this point, if you got tight control but high HbA1c then ways at dropping this tight range to a lower level should be sought, if loose control then of cause ways of tightening up the control… To improve the HbA1c…
 
I have never seen a better explanation of the condition and circumstances that also takes account of my situation. At last someone who understands! Gold star to jopar please :D.
 
I haven't been around much for a few days, too busy with work, but tonight I have had time to read a little, and now almost wish I hadn't. It's so depressing :( , especially the stuff about the damage high insulin levels does. I didn't know that ....... feel so worried for my children.
S
 
Not sure whether you’ve actually read my post fully or just misunderstood, what for T2’s is information that they could be used to extract Blood Meters and Test Strips form a narrow minded, penny pinching doctors surgery…

For the HbA1c to predict the long term complications for an individual, would mean a diabetic would have to achieve the exact identical control as everyone else at that percentage given…

Take myself and my husband for example, we both just had our HbA1c’s result and they were identical, but if you take a look at our blood meters, you will find that he’s had hypos and highs, where mine have been a lot tighter controlled… But yet we’ve got the same result?

If you reread my first post, you will see that I’ve have actually suggested that we need to be working with our Blood Meters on a day to day and it’s data, to maintain and improve our control, actually if we do this then we will find that as we use this data to improve, tighten and stabilise our control then our HbA1c will follow suit and give a better reflection to our outcomes…

To use the HbA1c as a stand alone result of the quality of 24/7 control achieved wouldn’t actually do anyone many favours, as sadly we are not non-diabetics and the HbA1c fluctuate over the years, it is impossible to maintain a permanent stable level to non-diabetic levels…

But to use this as a reason why you should be issued with a blood glucose meter and test strips on prescription so that you can monitor and maintain your control to as near to non-diabetic control as you possible can, so that can achieve Hb1Ac to suitable safe levels, surely this is of benefit to all T2’s…

But the variations of ranges do explain why some who it could be perceived to have reduced there risk factor suffer and other does not...

AND to ensure that you don’t misunderstand me, I am not condoning being dismissive of HbA1c results or implying that they don’t matter, but explaining that they are only part of the overall picture, and we need to work with the whole picture and not just one part
 
Jo an enlightend view and one which i for one hadnt considered. Another angle to come from when i get my next one in May.

Dave P
 
Guys guys guys guys guys,

With respect to all, I think it's less important to focus on a label that puts you in certain category, and more important that your blood numbers are good enough to help shift you out of the danger zone. I don't give a fiddler's **** what the difference is between 5.1 and 5.2 or whatever, and actually I suspect there's very little in real terms! Much more important to get your risk factor down as far as you are able within the lifestyle that you choose. Draw a line in the sand and make every effort to get there. Isn't that what we should focus on instead of quibbling over minutiae? It's just an irrelevant detail and not worth falling out over? :o
 
kegstore said:
Guys guys guys guys guys,

With respect to all, I think it's less important to focus on a label that puts you in certain category, and more important that your blood numbers are good enough to help shift you out of the danger zone. I don't give a fiddler's **** what the difference is between 5.1 and 5.2 or whatever, and actually I suspect there's very little in real terms! Much more important to get your risk factor down as far as you are able within the lifestyle that you choose. Draw a line in the sand and make every effort to get there. Isn't that what we should focus on instead of quibbling over minutiae? It's just an irrelevant detail and not worth falling out over? :o
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Good posting Kegs, do you think we can all calm it down a bit here.It's Saturday night go do something more interesting than argue about percentages!!!
 
I love a good conspiracy theory - who exactly are 'they'?

Regards, Tubs.
 
Diabetes Mum
especially the stuff about the damage high insulin levels does. I didn't know that ....... feel so worried for my children
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I wasn't going to get embroiled in this thread but can fully understand your worries for your children. However, people on this thread are looking at the negative aspects, not the many positive stories of people who have lived a lifetime with diabetes. There are now many people who have a lived for 50 of 60 years without complications. Read some of the stories on a site that I've mentioned several times because I find it so positive http://www.diabetes-stories.com/decades ... ecade=2030 .Theres a man who was diagnosed at 3 in 1926 and went on to be a racing driver,'he always adjusted his insulin to the forthcoming meal' (long before DAFNE!) so did another guy who was taught to dose adjust in the 1930s, he went on to be an artist and sung in choirs all round the world. Another diagnosed in 1939 started on a low carb, high insuli regime, then a little later put on a 200gm carb diet. She grew up to have children, to travel and now looks after her acre garden. She sis have cataracts but they were treated.These people had to test urine in test tubes and much less user friendly insulins.
Here on this forum Sarah was an excellent example of many years spent without developping complications. You can find people with type 1 taking part in iron man triathlons (and winning), climbing the worlds highest mountains and living very full lives, you can also find them living ordinary lives as mothers and grandmothers.

To get to the science, contrary to what has been stated earlier it does not appear that high insulin levels are a major cause of microvascular complications: hyperglycaemia is. Insulin resistance which is more often associated with type 2 and leads to an overproduction of insulin does have an association with macrovascular disease. This (very difficult) lecture explains the how and why but there is a rider. The lecturer is himself a diabetic and this is what he says
I and my family have struggled with diabetes for nearly all of my life. That struggle occupied a large part of my childhood, where everything I ate was weighed and calculated on a gram scale, and the doses of the few insulins that were then available were adjusted without the ability to know what my blood glucose values were. My parents did this despite the fact that most doctors believed that hyperglycemia had nothing to do with the pathogenesis of diabetic complications, because my parents believed that abnormal glucose must be bad. I am here today, and have accomplished what I have, in large part because of them.
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http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/reprint/54/6/1615

Your concern shows that you are demonstrating exactly the same kind of care for your children, it won't take away the worry completely but their future is not necessarily nearly as bleak as some of the postings imply.
 
I'm new here...joined last week. When I posted first I was struggling with high BG levels, hbac1 8, I've been type 2 for three years and on the advised high carb/low fat diet. I was diet control only for most of that time (now on metformin) but with poor control over the last year and my weight had gone up a fair bit. I came on here, read everything I could find, and changed my diet completely. I am now on low carbs and have started eating eggs and cheese again along with tons of veggies but no fruit. The change in a week is amazing....my fasting level is under 6.0 and under 6 two hours after meals...I am also losing weight for the first time in ages.

I am not saying that everyone is the same, but, low carbs certainly seems to work for many and regardless of what my dietician and gp advise, I am not going back on high carbs, I'm sticking to what works for me....it's my body after all!
 
Hi belinda.

Nice to see somebody else looking into things and taking control of THEIR life. Stick with it - you know it makes sense.

Ken :D
 
Belinda .... welcome. There arnt any guarantees anywhere but having done so and found it works do you need more proof ? It isnt a rigid discipline but if your numbers are good and the weight is going the right way it can be surprisingly flexible.. keep going :D

Dave P
 
I certainly will keep going, I have more energy too...which is a huge bonus. I think this is a great site and it's been an enormous help to me already :D
 
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