Jason Fung confused

Oldvatr said:

OK. I have not read his work so far - I tend to dive into the quagmire that is a published report from an endocrinologist or two reporting a new breakthrough, hence the term gobbledegook that I used earlier. They speak a different language! I started with the Krebs Cycle (Citric cycle) many years ago, and try to keep up with it, but it moves so fast now. I am not a biologist or a biochem geezer, but I did the rudiments at school many moons ago.

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Ivor is at his heart a problem solver. He switched from biochemistry to engineering early on.

On the Krebs cycle, it makes my eyes bleed and Ivor has covered it (I took the opportunity to make a pot of tea at that point!). He has started a series of 'Shorts' as part of his podcast channel for those of us who like to keep up. His latest lecture on cholesterol was an update on the science so I am glad that I viewed his earlier lecture called 'The Cholesterol Conundrum' so I understood (some) of the update.
His lecture 'The Vitamin D Debacle' is another excellent delve into metabolic processes.

edited typos

I think I have said that I have worked with and for Engineers for many years. Chief objective for any project has been to get to the prize by the best route and thus optimisation has been an integral part of that. Knowing and working with as many Engineers as I have (I am not an Engineer but a Scientist by trade and degree) they can be great and are but all have limitations. In my industry it is nowhere near enough to rely on Engineers alone, in fact projects are completed using a team of expertise, from varied disciplines. My employer is such a good case in point. World renowned in his Engineering sphere but still can’t fully grasp everything there needs to be grasped to fulfil the ultimate goal. I tend to carry over that thinking with me, to other such Engineers and yes including people like Ivor Cummings, and so keep an open mind. I learned to do that a long time ago.

Listlad said:

I think I have said that I have worked with and for Engineers for many years. Chief objective for any project has been to get to the prize by the best route and thus optimisation has been an integral part of that. Knowing and working with as many Engineers as I have (I am not an Engineer but a Scientist by trade and degree) they can be great and are but all have limitations. In my industry it is nowhere near enough to rely on a Engineers alone in fact projects are completed using a team of expertise. From varied disciplines. My employer is such a good case in point. World renowned in his Engineering sphere but still can’t fully grasp everything there needs to be grasped to fulfil the ultimate goal. I tend to carry over that thinking with me, to other such Engineers and yes including people like Ivor Cummings, and so keep an open mind. I learned to do that a long time ago.

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Which is why many here read Fung, Cummins, Taubes, Bickman, Fettke, Noakes, Mason, Feldman, Sikaris, Malhotra et al in an effort to come at this condition from every angle. The conferences that these boffins present at are such an eye opener, they really are.

Listlad said:

I think I have said that I have worked with and for Engineers for many years. Chief objective for any project has been to get to the prize by the best route and thus optimisation has been an integral part of that. Knowing and working with as many Engineers as I have (I am not an Engineer but a Scientist by trade and degree) they can be great and are but all have limitations. In my industry it is nowhere near enough to rely on a Engineers alone in fact projects are completed using a team of expertise. From varied disciplines. My employer is such a good case in point. World renowned in his Engineering sphere but still can’t fully grasp everything there needs to be grasped to fulfil the ultimate goal. I tend to carry over that thinking with me, to other such Engineers and yes including people like Ivor Cummings, and so keep an open mind. I learned to do that a long time ago.

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As an engineer myself, I can empathise with your critique. Some examples that spring to mind are Nikola Tesla, Graham Bell, Clive Sinclair, Elon Musk to name a few who slightly missed the target. It is indeed important to keep an open mind as all too often we see find people reach an exalted place, and then can only see one way to go and then they bang the same drum constantly even when proven wrong. We must continue problem solving, and look wider than just the immediate problem. My experience with systems is often that they interact in many ways that are not always obvious and can be perturbed by the smallest of things that look to be totally unconnected to the system. So I am always aware that the one solution fits all is not guaranteed to always work. As an aeronautics engineer this becomes essential thinking when dealing with safety issues

Guzzler said:

Which is why many here read Fung, Cummins, Taubes, Bickman, Fettke, Noakes, Mason, Feldman, Sikaris, Malhotra et al in an effort to come at this condition from every angle. The conferences that these boffins present at are such an eye opener, they really are.

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I don’t doubt you. I know what you mean. I have my own idols too from different spheres of complexity.

Oldvatr said:

As an engineer myself, I can empathise with your critique. Some examples that spring to mind are Nikola Tesla, Graham Bell, Clive Sinclair, Elon Musk to name a few who slightly missed the target. It is indeed important to keep an open mind as all too often we see find people reach an exalted place, and then can only see one way to go and then they bang the same drum constantly even when proven wrong. We must continue problem solving, and look wider than just the immediate problem. My experience with systems is often that they interact in many ways that are not always obvious and can be perturbed by the smallest of things that look to be totally unconnected to the system. So I am always aware that the one solution fits all is not guaranteed to always work. As an aeronautics engineer this becomes essential thinking when dealing with safety issues

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I totally agree.

Listlad said:

I don’t doubt you. I know what you mean. I have my own idols too from different spheres of complexity.

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I do not have idols or gurus. My point is that the people I mentioned are experts in their own fields from endocrinologists to engineers, from orthopaedic surgeons to neuro surgeons, from GPs to to statisticians and they have all crossed over into approaching this problem we have by looking beyond their personal expertise and to challenging dogma. Some have suffered for their pains (see Fettke or Noakes). When you have a multidisciplinary approach and you choose to learn from that approach then your mind is open, no?

Guzzler said:

I do not have idols or gurus.

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I didn’t say you did.

Well thats great. Do they all agree on everything? Probably not.

Listlad said:

I didn’t say you did.

Well thats great. Do they all agree on everything? Probably not.

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That is right, they differ on some aspects but what binds them is their passion to find answers in any way they can. A case in point is Cummins on oxidised LDLp and Diamond on Fibrinogens and clotting factors, neither are lipidologists.

Guzzler said:

many here read Fung, Cummins, Taubes, Bickman, Fettke, Noakes, Mason, Feldman, Sikaris, Malhotra et al

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The good thing about this forum is that the "many" read the stuff, and then tell us what it says.

Saves a lot of time and lets me get on with more important stuff

britishpub said:

The good thing about this forum is that the "many" read the stuff, and then tell us what it says.

Saves a lot of time and lets me get on with more important stuff

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Aye, it helps to cut down on the guff (and there's a lot of guff out there) that one sometimes has to trawl through to get to the real science.

T2D is usually a combination of Insulin Resistance by the organs in your body, due to too much insulin caused by to frequent eating of carbs, particularly sugar and fractose and fat within and around the organs. The two go hand in hand as large quantities of insulin and carbs will trigger fat production. What Dr. Fung is saying, cut the carbs to reduce the insulin. Once your excess sugar is used the body can work on the fats. If you fast or practise time restricted feeding, you will reduce your insulin and carbs quickly, which will trigger a switch in your body to fat burning. The first fats to go will be those in the organs.

mazza 2 said:

So, even though they have no signs or symptoms of type 2 diabetes, they still can't eat foods which are high carb as they would cause a sugar spike. Surely, there must be something else which causes this to happen, what I'm trying to say is once you become diabetic, regardless of having a normal HBA1C and normal blood sugars, no visceral fat, your body still reacts to carbs. I'm thinking I am viewing this incorrectly, but just wondered what views other members have. Thanks and have a good day.

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Was first diagnosed with T2D in March 2000 (prescribed 500 mg metformin twice a day) and used a blood glucose monitor to determine myself what happened when I ate or drank various foods, then adjusted my diet accordingly. In 1 year (after losing 60 lbs) was removed from metformin by my physician and basically had normal blood glucose levels until re-diagnosed in March 2019 (had regained 40 lbs plus other poor eating habits) again with T2D. Was then in a frenzy scouring the internet and libraries for the latest info and was shocked that there were still arguments about what T2D treatment and diet was best.
Decided to do what I did before but had read a few more books, especially "The Diabetes Code" by Jason Fung and decided that this was similar to the regime I had followed back in year 2000. The whole food plant based diet (WFPB) is also similar but extremely difficult to implement and stay on long term if you are a ravenous omnivore like myself. My attitude is anything that works is better than blindly following the government's diabetic food plan, which I tried back in 2000 and if it didn't work then and hasn't changed much, why should it work now? After nearly 20 years you would have thought that effective diet changes for T2D would have been discovered, tested, publicized and implemented. Fortunately, I will just eat and drink the same way I did nearly 20 years ago, using the much improved blood glucose monitor to gauge my food intake accordingly. I also believe that after I lose the 40 pounds of fat that I regained I'll be much more diligent about keeping it off.

Thanks all for being here, there was nothing like this forum 20 years ago...