Jason Fung confused

Grant_Vicat

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I agree, but maybe not the same as a diabetic. I've tested my son who sat and ate a mars bar and drank an energy drink. He came out as 5.2 within the first hour. Don't think I would have. Oh well, onwards and upwards
It would have been interesting to test him within 25 - 30 minutes. Non diabetics often go just beyond 10.0
 
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Mbaker

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Really like this thread and the methodologies being looked at. I find Jason Fung's hypothesis credible. I think it helps to explain why you can't just attack blood sugars with stacks of insulin for Type 2's ; I am with Fung, that this just tidy's the blood sugar into other areas. The more I review what previous dietary habits were (and still are in some areas) the more I think the answers are before us, if we chose to see these. Over the last couple of days I have been studying the various pygmy populations, as they still continue to eat ancestrally and do not have supermarkets fast food outlets and the like:
upload_2019-4-1_21-41-58.png


They are smaller than most societies, but tend to have low body fat, cvd, diabetes, hypertension and not 600,000 ridiculous sugar laden "fake" in my opinion foods; this closer to Paleo type eating is what I think "we" can cope with for life and for me closer to "normal". These populations do have other diseases that Western medicine has all but cleared. I think "we" are in a bigger hole than industrialised food can fix; I vote for real food and Western medical intervention for chronic conditions.

It appears that any society that breaks around 70 pounds of sugar per person per annum gets the results of the western diet, a repeatable exercise that has played out over the last 60 or so years. I also believe that sugar has weakened the pancreas of the last 2 generations of parents to make glucose tolerance worse in younger persons, helping to lead to earlier Type 2 diagnosis.

I did a 30, 60, 90 and 2 hour-ish test on Monday 18th March of my coconut flour / cream cheese pancakes, berries and macadamia nuts brunch. I purposefully did not do any exercise to get a clean picture of response for a meal size LCHF breakfast.

@mazza 2, I thought it might interest you a low carb high fat test, my fbg that morning was 3.9 (interesting that at the start of the test I was at 4.8). The dip and regain is interesting, but I was / am happy with this response, considering my history:

upload_2019-4-1_21-19-10.png


upload_2019-4-1_21-39-12.png


No chance of me doing a GGT, I will never go near that stuff, in that type of concentration.
 
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Listlad

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Really like this thread and the methodologies being looked at. I find Jason Fung's hypothesis credible. I think it helps to explain why you can't just attack blood sugars with stacks of insulin for Type 2's ; I am with Fung, that this just tidy's the blood sugar into other areas. The more I review what previous dietary habits were (and still are in some areas) the more I think the answers are before us, if we chose to see these. Over the last couple of days I have been studying the various pygmy populations, as they still continue to eat ancestrally and do not have supermarkets fast food outlets and the like:
View attachment 32122

They are smaller than most societies, but tend to have low body fat, cvd, diabetes, hypertension and not 600,000 ridiculous sugar laden "fake" in my opinion foods; this closer to Paleo type eating is what I think "we" can cope with for life and for me closer to "normal". These populations do have other diseases that Western medicine has all but cleared. I think "we" are in a bigger hole than industrialised food can fix; I vote for real food and Western medical intervention for chronic conditions.

It appears that any society that breaks around 70 pounds of sugar per person per annum gets the results of the western diet, a repeatable exercise that has played out over the last 60 or so years. I also believe that sugar has weakened the pancreas of the last 2 generations of parents to make glucose tolerance worse in younger persons, helping to lead to earlier Type 2 diagnosis.

I did a 30, 60, 90 and 2 hour-ish test on Monday 18th March of my coconut flour / cream cheese pancakes, berries and macadamia nuts brunch. I purposefully did not do any exercise to get a clean picture of response for a meal size LCHF breakfast.

@mazza 2, I thought it might interest you a low carb high fat test, my fbg that morning was 3.9 (interesting that at the start of the test I was at 4.8). The dip and regain is interesting, but I was / am happy with this response, considering my history:

View attachment 32117

View attachment 32121

No chance of me doing a GGT, I will never go near that stuff, in that type of concentration.
That clip you inserted describes a diet that isn’t so far removed from the one Mrs Listlad had as a child. Maybe without the termites. But along the same lines. Except rice but that was hard to come by and had to be traded for in nearby villages in the manner described.
 
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bulkbiker

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Thanks for the reply, so basically you are able to eat for example a cake and your body would react normally, like a non-diabetic?

I have no idea.. eating things like cake was what got me into the state I was in at 23 stone with T2 diabetes.. why would I want to even try that?
However I can "pass" an Oral Glucose Tolerance Test and have almost normal insulin resistance and very low HbA1c numbers so....
 
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mazza 2

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Really like this thread and the methodologies being looked at. I find Jason Fung's hypothesis credible. I think it helps to explain why you can't just attack blood sugars with stacks of insulin for Type 2's ; I am with Fung, that this just tidy's the blood sugar into other areas. The more I review what previous dietary habits were (and still are in some areas) the more I think the answers are before us, if we chose to see these. Over the last couple of days I have been studying the various pygmy populations, as they still continue to eat ancestrally and do not have supermarkets fast food outlets and the like:
View attachment 32122

They are smaller than most societies, but tend to have low body fat, cvd, diabetes, hypertension and not 600,000 ridiculous sugar laden "fake" in my opinion foods; this closer to Paleo type eating is what I think "we" can cope with for life and for me closer to "normal". These populations do have other diseases that Western medicine has all but cleared. I think "we" are in a bigger hole than industrialised food can fix; I vote for real food and Western medical intervention for chronic conditions.

It appears that any society that breaks around 70 pounds of sugar per person per annum gets the results of the western diet, a repeatable exercise that has played out over the last 60 or so years. I also believe that sugar has weakened the pancreas of the last 2 generations of parents to make glucose tolerance worse in younger persons, helping to lead to earlier Type 2 diagnosis.

I did a 30, 60, 90 and 2 hour-ish test on Monday 18th March of my coconut flour / cream cheese pancakes, berries and macadamia nuts brunch. I purposefully did not do any exercise to get a clean picture of response for a meal size LCHF breakfast.

@mazza 2, I thought it might interest you a low carb high fat test, my fbg that morning was 3.9 (interesting that at the start of the test I was at 4.8). The dip and regain is interesting, but I was / am happy with this response, considering my history:


View attachment 32117

View attachment 32121

No chance of me doing a GGT, I will never go near that stuff, in that type of concentration.
Gosh, that looks very appetising. I'm happy to give that a go although my fbg are usually in the 6's. I'll let you know how I get on.
 

mazza 2

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I have no idea.. eating things like cake was what got me into the state I was in at 23 stone with T2 diabetes.. why would I want to even try that?
However I can "pass" an Oral Glucose Tolerance Test and have almost normal insulin resistance and very low HbA1c numbers so....
Wow, it seems like you have cracked it and truly reversed your condition. The thing is, (I don't want to sound negative) but as a diabetic, and even though all the markers are good and in non-diabetic range, if I (don't know about you) were to become ill, stressed or even over- excited the sugar levels spike. I experienced this at Christmas when I had lots of people coming over for dinner. I hadn't eaten anything different to normal and yet my sugars went to 10. Haven't been that high for a long time. So, does this only happen to a diabetic or would this happen to someone who wasn't diabetic. Just wondered what your thoughts are?
 

Mbaker

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That clip you inserted includes a diet that isn’t so far removed from the one Mrs Listlad had as a child. Maybe without the termites. But along the same lines. Except rice. But that was hard to come by and had to be traded for in the manner described.
What I struggle with as an IT Engineer, I look at why collectively we are where we are, being even children getting Type 2, between 50 - 60% of persons being either overweight or obese and at least in the US a similar number with blood glucose issues, and again in the US fasting insulin averages of 8.5. How much more proof do we need that we simply cannot do high carb. No RCT's are required it is blatantly clear that at maximum, only a third of us can cope with the sugar / carb on-slaught (and less if you accept Kraft's insulin work) and the numbers are in the millions, easily cross referenced by bloated health budgets and insurance costs. I think it why I have such affinity with Engineers who have come into this space, dispassionately review and look at where evidence leads. In the countries that are still eating in a traditional manner they eat simply, with whole proteins based on animals, seasonal other foods and natural starches.
 

Listlad

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What I struggle with as an IT Engineer, I look at why collectively we are where we are, being even children getting Type 2, between 50 - 60% of persons being either overweight or obese and at least in the US a similar number with blood glucose issues, and again in the US fasting insulin averages of 8.5. How much more proof do we need that we simply cannot do high carb. No RCT's are required it is blatantly clear that at maximum, only a third of us can cope with the sugar / carb on-slaught (and less if you accept Kraft's insulin work) and the numbers are in the millions, easily cross referenced by bloated health budgets and insurance costs. I think it why I have such affinity with Engineers who have come into this space, dispassionately review and look at where evidence leads. In the countries that are still eating in a traditional manner they eat simply, with whole proteins based on animals, seasonal other foods and natural starches.
I think I explained to DCUKMod. My wife and her family lived in a provincial setting where the food they ate was largely what they grew and farmed in their own backyard. The mother (in-law) would walk for miles to trade her produce with others to provide a wider range of foodstuffs. No roads. Just tracks. Quite a lot on your list match those foods that my wife has told me she and her family ate. However she does not eat like that now though. Quite the opposite.

Engineers? My employer is an Engineer. And his company specialise in training Engineers. :D
 

bulkbiker

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become ill, stressed or even over- excited the sugar levels spike
Yes when ill my sugars go up but I would imagine that may be the case for "normals" although as they don't for the most part monitor its hard to say for sure. Stress to can cause elevation although I don't have much these days. Can't say I have noticed peaks through over excitement but I may have just missed them by not testing so often as I used to.
10 however is pretty high I don't think I have been over 6 all year.. Have you though of trying some fasting to lower your levels if you are worried?
I never eat before noon and just get by with tea and coffee (with milk or cream). I found that a very good therapy for lowering blood sugars.
 
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Mbaker

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Gosh, that looks very appetising. I'm happy to give that a go although my fbg are usually in the 6's. I'll let you know how I get on.
I must say it tastes how it looks. My extra fine almond versions look the same but are much more neutral, which I think would be further acceptable to more, as these are more like shop bought white bread in so far as not having an underlying flavour.

Today I had salmon, cheddar cheese slices in muffin buns made with extra fine almond flour. The saltiness of the salmon, with the cheese and the neutral muffins was / is as good as anything I had in my carb days for taste. The richness is so satisfying and made me struggle with dinner:

upload_2019-4-1_23-33-34.png
 

Listlad

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I did a 30, 60, 90 and 2 hour-ish test on Monday 18th March of my coconut flour / cream cheese pancakes, berries and macadamia nuts brunch. I purposefully did not do any exercise to get a clean picture of response for a meal size LCHF breakfast.

@mazza 2, I thought it might interest you a low carb high fat test, my fbg that morning was 3.9 (interesting that at the start of the test I was at 4.8). The dip and regain is interesting, but I was / am happy with this response, considering my history:

View attachment 32117

View attachment 32121

No chance of me doing a GGT, I will never go near that stuff, in that type of concentration.
The time spread looks interesting.
 

Mbaker

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I think I explained to DCUKMod. My wife and her family lived in a provincial setting where the food they ate was largely what they grew and farmed in their own backyard. The mother (in-law) would walk for miles to trade her produce with others to provide a wider range of foodstuffs. No roads. Just tracks. Quite a lot on your list match those foods that my wife has told me she and her family ate. However she does not eat like that now though. Quite the opposite.

Engineers? My employer is an Engineer. And his company specialise in training Engineers. :D
The Engineers such as Ted Naimen (now a Doctor), Ivor Cummins and Dave Feldman, I think could sit on a panel and the best people on the other side of the debates I feel would not fair well against them in the areas of debate, e,g.meat, fish, blood sugars, cholesterol - for me it would be one sided. I would trust these guys with the health of my family to make better decisions than any established body in this world, all of them have had health issues they have had to fix with low carb hf / hp diets, so have lived "it" also, Ted Naimen has seen over 100,000 patients.
 
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Listlad

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The Engineers such as Ted Naimen (now a Doctor), Ivor Cummins and Dave Feldman, I think could sit on a panel and the best people on the other side of the debates I feel would not fair well against them in the areas of debate, e,g.meat, fish, blood sugars, cholesterol - for me it would be one sided. I would trust these guys with the health of my family to make better decisions than any established body in this world, all of them have had health issues they have had to fix with low carb hf / hp diets, so have lived "it" also, Ted Naimen has seen over 100,000 patients.
It is from the world of Engineering that I take the expression “optimisation” from. So from Engineering optimisation I apply the term to diet.
 
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mazza 2

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I must say it tastes how it looks. My extra fine almond versions look the same but are much more neutral, which I think would be further acceptable to more, as these are more like shop bought white bread in so far as not having an underlying flavour.

Today I had salmon, cheddar cheese slices in muffin buns made with extra fine almond flour. The saltiness of the salmon, with the cheese and the neutral muffins was / is as good as anything I had in my carb days for taste. The richness is so satisfying and made me struggle with dinner:

View attachment 32125
Do you have the receipt and the carb count. They do look delicious. mind you I'm not a brilliant cook but getting better.
 

mazza 2

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Yes when ill my sugars go up but I would imagine that may be the case for "normals" although as they don't for the most part monitor its hard to say for sure. Stress to can cause elevation although I don't have much these days. Can't say I have noticed peaks through over excitement but I may have just missed them by not testing so often as I used to.
10 however is pretty high I don't think I have been over 6 all year.. Have you though of trying some fasting to lower your levels if you are worried?
I never eat before noon and just get by with tea and coffee (with milk or cream). I found that a very good therapy for lowering blood sugars.
I know, they were high, still been ok since. Obviously got more work to do. I have thought about intermittent fasting but as I'm underweight already, I'm not sure if they would be advisable. Also, I notice if I don't eat in the mornings my levels just keep on rising so I panic and eat. How long should you wait to eat if your levels keep rising?
 
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This discussion has made me want to listen to The Diabetes Code again. I’ll never get bored of it, and on each read-through I understand insulin resistance just a little bit more fluently. Of course there will be those who make a case that Dr. Fung doesn’t know what he’s talking about, but personally, from my own experiences, research, and even just instinctively as an engineer, I am absolutely convinced that his model of diabetes etiology and treatment is the closest we currently have to being correct.
 
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mazza 2

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This discussion has made me want to listen to The Diabetes Code again. I’ll never get bored of it, and on each read-through I understand insulin resistance just a little bit more fluently. Of course there will be those who make a case that Dr. Fung doesn’t know what he’s talking about, but personally, from my own experiences, research, and even just instinctively as an engineer, I am absolutely convinced that his model of diabetes etiology and treatment is the closest we currently have to being correct.
I've read the book more than once and listened to him on Youtube. To me what he says sounds logical regarding insulin being the cause and sugar levels being the symptom. I can totally relate to that. It was only the idea about beta cells which I struggled with. He states the more you use a muscle e.g. heart, the stronger it gets, so on that premise, the more insulin you make the more beta cells are used which should make them stronger ( I think that's correct). But my logic says that sometimes the more you use something, e.g. joggers who constantly run can get bad knees and like my super fit brother-in-law, needed an operation as his knees were very worn from all the wear and tear over the years. So, the other thought about over-working the beta cells also makes sense to me, hence why we will always be diabetic. But, that's only my way of thinking, hence why I started this thread. Have a good day.
 

Oldvatr

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Thanks for the reply, so basically you are able to eat for example a cake and your body would react normally, like a non-diabetic? I'm doing low-carb and I have no intention of changing as I think it's better for me. I appreciate that eating high-carb as a normal diet would eventually lead to where one started, which is a no no.
I think of it this way. I have actually just got myself into reversal as a T2D on orals by using a low carb way of life and weight loss. I have proven to myself and the A&E doctors that I m hyperinsulinemic as insulin drips do nothing for my blood sugars. So now when I eat carbs, the insulin resistance I had has gone, and my body stores the excess glucose away in my body as it is meant to. My body is like a battery, so if I do not use that stored energy up by exercise or low carb diet, then it will charge up again until it is full, and then I lay down visceral fat instead. This brings the diabetes back again. So I will keep LC diets going

One other thing I discovered during my reseach is that adipose fat cells get created by switcheng on unprogrammed stem cells. Once programmed it seems these cells cannot be readily re programmed as muscle, especially in the visceral area.so this is why we get love handles that are difficult to shift. We have to empty out the fat then keep them from refilling again Fat cells once created do not go away, just deflate, but are always ready to fill again given the chance. Hence the yo-yo diet syndrome, and wattles.
 
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Listlad

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I think of it this way. I have actually just got myself into reversal as a T2D on orals by using a low carb way of life and weight loss. I have proven to myself and the A&E doctors that I m hyperinsulinemic as insulin drips do nothing for my blood sugars. So now when I eat carbs, the insulin resistance I had has gone, and my body stores the excess glucose away in my body as it is meant to. My body is like a battery, so if I do not use that stored energy up by exercise or low carb diet, then it will charge up again until it is full, and then I lay down visceral fat instead. This brings the diabetes back again. So I will keep LC diets going

One other thing I discovered during my reseach is that adipose fat cells get created by switcheng on unprogrammed stem cells. Once programmed it seems these cells cannot be readily re programmed as muscle, especially in the visceral area.so this is why we get love handles that are difficult to shift. We have to empty out the fat then keep them from refilling again Fat cells once created do not go away, just deflate, but are always ready to fill again given the chance. Hence the yo-yo diet syndrome, and wattles.
I like that battery analogy.
 
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