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Jason Fung confused

Discussion in 'Type 2 Diabetes' started by mazza 2, Apr 1, 2019.

  1. mazza 2

    mazza 2 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Hi Everyone,
    I just wanted to ask your opinions about reversing diabetes according to Jason Fung. I have been reading and listening to the advice of Jason regarding diabetes and I am a little confused!! He states that diabetes is a result of hyperinsulinemia which I understand. Therefore, diabetics need to treat this which will result in lower blood sugars. He then states that diabetes is caused by fat surrounding the pancreas and liver which you need to get rid of and once that happens your beta cells in your pancreas will start to work. I was told on the Desmond course that the beta cells die off due to overwork, but he disagrees with this and says they can't work because of the fat in the pancreas. Therefore, if he is saying that once you remove the visceral fat from the internal organs, and your beta cells are all there and working correctly, how come that even though diabetes is reversed, you still couldn't eat something high carb without a sugar spike? If someone reversers their diabetes and had a cake they would spike unlike a non-diabetic. So, even though they have no signs or symptoms of type 2 diabetes, they still can't eat foods which are high carb as they would cause a sugar spike. Surely, there must be something else which causes this to happen, what I'm trying to say is once you become diabetic, regardless of having a normal HBA1C and normal blood sugars, no visceral fat, your body still reacts to carbs. I'm thinking I am viewing this incorrectly, but just wondered what views other members have. Thanks and have a good day.
     
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  2. NoCrbs4Me

    NoCrbs4Me I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Even non-diabetics get a blood glucose spike after eating a high carb meal.
     
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  3. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Master

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    Not just Dr Fung but also the whole Newcastle Diet premise is based around visceral fat impeding the work of the pancreas.
    I think that once you have the propensity to develop visceral fat then it becomes far easier to slip back and overconsumption of carbs will do that.
    I always doubted the beta cell death theory as many people have indeed exhibited near normal responses to carbs once they have lost the weight or restored their pancreas to working normally myself included. However I can be pretty sure that if I went back to eating the carbs that I used to the problem would return with a vengeance. A bit like regaining the visceral fat which would impede the pancreas again.
    Does that help a bit?
     
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  4. Listlad

    Listlad Prediabetes · BANNED

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    This is not an answer to the question. More me wondering out loud. The way I have thought I understand it is that irreparable damage is incurred somewhere or other such that reversal doesnt take us back to the condition we were at previously.

    In that sense I also wonder like you.
     
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  5. Guzzler

    Guzzler Type 2 · Master

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    I think in a way using cake as an example is very telling. Nowhere in nature would you find a food with that 'Bliss Point' of roughly 50-50 fat and sugar. The difference between those who have insulin resistance and those who do not is simply down to how much one can compensate for such high levels of refined carbs and unhealthy fats. And as we know the numbers of those whose bodys can no longer compensate is growing at an alarming rate.

    I am of the opinion that if one sticks to whole foods then one can recover (given time) some insulin sensitivity but not to the level that the modern western diet demands. The modern western diet is intrinsically unhealthy and plays arguably the biggest role in our condition. If we return to it after recovering some insulin sensitivity then we will lose it even more quickly. But this is just my opinion based on my limited knowledge.
     
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  6. Brunneria

    Brunneria Other · Moderator
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    @mazza 2
    I think, as with most things, there are shades of grey here.

    Beta cell death definitely happens - to some people.
    And it is more likely to happen the longer your beta cells are smothered in fat, or over worked by having to produce massive amounts of insulin to overcome insulin resistance.
    Likewise, not everyone has a fatty liver in the first place, so those individuals’ beta cells don’t need defatting.

    There are several different forms of Glucose dysregulation all grouped together under the same type 2 name (including misdiagnosis) and i have always thought that Jason Fung is too simplistic claiming that fasting and weight loss is a catch all solution. Likewise, I have always thought that the Newcastle Diet’s focus on defatting the liver through weight loss is also too simplistic - as shown by their 40% reversal success rate.

    Having said that, these treatments are highly effective for many. So just because it doesn’t work for everyone, doesn’t mean that they are not very useful treatment options - after appropriate assessment to identify those patients who will benefit.

    As you have pointed out, losing weight and defatting the liver, and reducing insulin resistance are great things to achieve, but glucose dysregulation doesn’t always just disappear with fasting and weight loss. They probably reduce significantly. But for some of us, the the insulin resistance came first, and the weight gain (subcutaneous or liver) came later. In which case, losing the weight isn’t necessarily going to address the root cause, which may be environmental, genetic, age related, medication induced, or due to other health conditions.
     
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  7. mazza 2

    mazza 2 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the reply, so basically you are able to eat for example a cake and your body would react normally, like a non-diabetic? I'm doing low-carb and I have no intention of changing as I think it's better for me. I appreciate that eating high-carb as a normal diet would eventually lead to where one started, which is a no no.
     
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  8. andcol

    andcol I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member
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    Hi, just add that I have normal glucose response to carbs after losing weight. In fact the longer it went on the better it got so I think there is a level of repair that my body underwent from fasting (autofage). The body is far more complex than anyone understands and you are also playing with the politics of science and society especially with the beliefs of those that sell the Desmond course
     
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  9. mazza 2

    mazza 2 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    That makes sense. Sometimes, I read about how type 2 diabetes is all down to diet, and obesity is the reason, but that just isn't true. When I listen to and read what people like Jason Fung say they only ever talk about people who need to lose weight. Even on the Desmond Course I went on they apologised to me as the course was about educating people on diet and weight loss and I was of normal weight and now underweight. Obviously, my diet wasn't as good as I thought or I wouldn't have diabetes. The thing for me is there isn't that much information for people who develop type 2 and are normal weight. I know about TOFI but I'm not sure that relates to everyone who is slim. I know my mum and her sister were both type 2 in later life but they were both older than me. As you say, there are other reasons why people get diabetes and maybe one day it will be dis covered. Thanks
     
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  10. mazza 2

    mazza 2 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    That's great to hear and well done. Can I ask how long it took for your insulin resistance to improve. I was diagnosed jan 2018 with an A1C of 76. It's now at 44 in November 2018 and I'm gonna book my next test in May. Does a lower A1C mean your insulin resistance is improving. Thanks
     
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  11. Guzzler

    Guzzler Type 2 · Master

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    I agree which is why I am not fully on board with ND or with CICO.
     
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  12. mazza 2

    mazza 2 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I seem to agree with your thoughts. It would be good to find out what that damage is!!!
     
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  13. mazza 2

    mazza 2 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I agree, but maybe not the same as a diabetic. I've tested my son who sat and ate a mars bar and drank an energy drink. He came out as 5.2 within the first hour. Don't think I would have. Oh well, onwards and upwards
     
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  14. mazza 2

    mazza 2 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, being dumb whats CICO!!!
     
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  15. Guzzler

    Guzzler Type 2 · Master

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    CICO is the 'Calories in Calories out' model otherwise known as 'Eat less move more' and, as you have said, this does not apply if one is not overweight or obese. There has to be other causes at work.
     
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  16. Listlad

    Listlad Prediabetes · BANNED

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    I am assuming damage has been done in my case. So am keeping off cakes and stuff for now and other carbs to a greater degree. Then at some point reassess.
     
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  17. Jim Lahey

    Jim Lahey I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    The majority of type 2 are insulin resistant, not insulin deficient. Most of us are overproducing insulin until the pancreas becomes very badly clogged. Before that stage the main problem is fatty liver and hepatic insulin resistance. Depending on progression it can take a very long time for both the liver and pancreas to return to full working order, and even then, the mechanism that brought about diabetes can bring it about again if you return to putting glucose into your body.

    You don’t just get diabetes overnight. It takes a long time. If you are able to purge your body back to the levels of sugar that it contained in your childhood, you could theoretically return to eating carbohydrate...until you once again filled it up. I personally feel that the majority pay too much attention to blood glucose. It doesn’t tell you anything about the glucose in your whole body, only that which is being rejected by the liver and thus accumulating in the blood. If one considers oneself cured based on blood glucose alone, you have no way of knowing how many doughnuts you are away from hitting the overflow again.
     
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  18. Guzzler

    Guzzler Type 2 · Master

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    Unless or until some boffin invents a home insulin meter then bg measured with a glucometer is our only marker. That and trying our best to limit the frequency and duration of insulin responses.
     
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  19. Jim Lahey

    Jim Lahey I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. Hence a recent topic I started regarding eating to the meter or playing the long game. The long game being always minimising insulin secretion irrespective of blood glucose.
     
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  20. LindsayJane

    LindsayJane Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Hear, hear!
     
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