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Jason Fung confused

Discussion in 'Type 2 Diabetes' started by mazza 2, Apr 1, 2019.

  1. Mr_Pot

    Mr_Pot Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    The hyperinsulinemic-euglycemic clamp test is often referred to as the gold standard for insulin resistance testing. It is not practical to use this test apart from in research as it is too complex and invasive. It's advantage is that it is a dynamic test that measures the ability to disperse glucose as levels are increased. The fasting insulin test is a static test that shows the balance between insulin and gluconeogenesis by the liver, it is an indication but not a measure of overall insulin resistance and varies with ethnicity and gender. Professor Mathews stated that HOMA-IR index, derived from fasting insulin, should only be used to compare populations not individuals. So a reluctance to use fasting insulin as a standard test is probably due to the difficulty in interpreting the results.
     
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  2. jwd1

    jwd1 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Answers :- 1) I took myself off them from 3/day to zero over a 12 month period, dropping them one at a time, with colusion with my diabetic nurse, metformin gave me very loose bowel movements and lots of them !! :-( . 2) Dr sent me for ultra sound on a visit for a strained rib as I had been humping weights around and overdid things, he poked around and thought that my liver was enlarged so ordered the ultra sound.
    I should add that I played professional sport, ran marathons up until a few years ago, I still run an aerobics class with HIIT, weights and floor work, plus lots of walking in the Dales, so people in general can't believe that I am diabetic, including my doctor who thinks it's in the genes.
     
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  3. Cinderella56

    Cinderella56 Type 2 · Member

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    Hello

    I weigh 8 stone 10 and exercise and eat healthily not too many carbs I am still diabetic.. my great great grandmother was diabetic my aunt was diabetic my great aunt was diabetic my mothers coz diabetic .. I was diabetic in my first pregnancy aged 19 at that time when I became pregnant I weighed seven and a half stone! So its not always weight that is the problem as I have never been overweight but I still have diabetes type two which I was told when I was 19 in that first pregnancy that I would get when I was over 40. Did not become diabetic till I was 55. So how does all this fat causes it work with me? Obviously it must be genetic?
     
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  4. jpscloud

    jpscloud Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Thanks! I need to get some extra fine almond flour, I just have ground at the moment which makes a nice scone type muffin with strawberries and cream but doesn't quite have the right texture for savoury things.
     
  5. Krystyna23040

    Krystyna23040 Type 2 (in remission!) · Well-Known Member

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    Yes - I was on insulin (Novorapid and Lantus) for 4 years. Have now been off the insulin (and also take no meds) for well over a year. Hba1c isn't as good as I would like but at end of March was 42 - down from 44 in September.

    I actually think it will probably drop lower. This week have been getting some really low numbers - only just hovering over 4 - even after eating. This is very puzzling - but maybe I have started another phase of my recovery and I have suddenly become more insulin sensitive or beta cells are pumping out more insulin.

    I have noticed this week that I do feel more energetic also. I feel that, for me, low carb is for life because I just don't want to risk the T2 coming back.
     
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  6. Mbaker

    Mbaker Type 2 (in remission!) · Well-Known Member

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    You might be an outlier, but I still think there are always optimisations that can be tried. I remember when I was working out quite hard (harder than I am now) and getting fbg's just over 5 for quite some time (whilst still on metformin and weighing less). I was seeing some getting mid 4 fbg's and thought that was out of reach for me. I recall research from Israel on the gut microbiome - I was prepared to ultimately travel there to see if they could help me some more. I have not had to go down this route.

    What has changed things for me is resistance training. I had still kept up cardio but avoided resistance training as the advice for hypertensives was clear. I did general gym workouts with dumbbells and static equipment, and noticed a drop in fbg to around 4.7. Long story short this morning I was at 4.2 after only 1 heavy weights session at noon yesterday (a lazy day for me). I would encourage everyone who can to try powerlifting; the science makes sense for blood glucose control, for me it is easier than 45 minutes on the treadmill, it is very satisfying getting the technicalities right (tight core, alignment, breathing and execution). I feel for persons who are petite the worst that can happen is healthy weight gain without bulk (it is a different world becoming muscle bound). Maybe worth a try.
     
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  7. Caeseji

    Caeseji Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Been noting that myself actually, last night the fry up sent my blood from 5.1 to 4.4! Not sure what I saw going on there but I’m appreciating it.
     
  8. Barbara79

    Barbara79 · Newbie

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    What about human insulin Elisa kits?
     
  9. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

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    There are two phases of insulin response that we normally get in response to eating carbohydrates. Stage 1 insulin is triggered as soon as sweet carbs hit the tongue by releasing the enzyme amylase, and then Stage 2 starts when carbs start being digested in the duodenum and the small intestine. The first stage is fast acting and is to soften the initial sugar spike, then the second stage lasts while carbs are being absorbed into the bloodstream. The body normally handles turning these insulin taps on and off automatically, but in T2D it seems we either lose the ability for stage 1, or we do not switch off Stage 2 at the correct time. Some artificial sweetners are bad for T2D in that they also trigger amylase stage 1 even though there may not be any significant carbs to follow, and this does not help hyperinsulinemia.

    So as Insulin Resistance reduces following an appropriate diet, then we may see an improvement in post prandial readings as the insulin response improves, and this may give some surprising drops after a meal, especially if the Stage 1 response improves. Stage 1 is normally associated with the insulin to muscle pathway, and this often responds first with the glycogen stores being depleted by the diet leading to weight loss with the associated water loss. This may explain why the 2 hr PP can drop so suddenly, but the 4 hr PP may not drop so much. For example the Newcastle diet which is calorie restricted diet, noted that there was an early improvement in blood sugars directly correponding to weight loss, which was actually the glycogen stores depleting. It took longer to start depleting the liver stores and the adipose fat needed to achieve remission.
     
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  10. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

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  11. Guzzler

    Guzzler Type 2 · Master

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    After a quick google, these sound like lab kits. One brand requires a centrifuge and an incubator. And the kits carry a hefty price tag.
     
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  12. Caeseji

    Caeseji Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    @Oldvatr That was a really comprehensive post, thank you for that and it could explain why I am shooting down these days even 4 hours later I am a little bit lower sometimes and closer to the 3's. Taking it as a good sign that a lot of my fatty tissue is starting to be used up with my fasting so I appreciate that. The science behind this condition is rather astounding.
     
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  13. Guzzler

    Guzzler Type 2 · Master

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    It is fascinating at times, isnt it? Ivor describes human metabolism as exquisitely complex, he's not wrong.
     
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  14. Jim Lahey

    Jim Lahey I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I dig it big time. Perpetually fascinating.
     
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  15. Listlad

    Listlad Prediabetes · BANNED

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    He isn’t.
     
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  16. Caeseji

    Caeseji Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I think I learned more about the human body from reading up about diabetes than I ever did back in biology if I'm honest. Fine tuning my metabolic processes has been fun in a strangely morbid way.
     
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  17. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

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    Ivor? Is that Ivor Cummins? The Fat Emperor? I thought he was mainly talking about the heart and lipids.
     
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  18. Guzzler

    Guzzler Type 2 · Master

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    Insulin Resistance got him started, he then moved on to Cholesterol and then to the CAC scan and heart health. He still covers all three topics in his podcasts.

    eta.

    I think it was ferritin levels at an MOT that got him started in the first instance, getting blank stares from GPs when he asked them what these levels actually meant.
     
  19. Listlad

    Listlad Prediabetes · BANNED

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    Me too. I had a “deprived” childhood. And never did biology at school. It wasn’t an option or mandatory.
     
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  20. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

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    OK. I have not read his work so far - I tend to dive into the quagmire that is a published report from an endocrinologist or two reporting a new breakthrough, hence the term gobbledegook that I used earlier. They speak a different language! I started with the Krebs Cycle (Citric cycle) many years ago, and try to keep up with it, but it moves so fast now. I am not a biologist or a biochem geezer, but I did the rudiments at school many moons ago.
     
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