Job withdrawn

Milky1

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Just wondering if anyone on here has had a job offer withdrawn because you were diabetic. I have , passed medical including eyesight and hearing and the company were told I was diabetic from the start. Measured me up for a uniform too only to be told when I got home that they'd withdrawn the job offer as it was a safety critical roll and being type 1 I couldn't be left on my own .
 

NicoleC1971

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What was the job? I would get in touch with DuK Careline to discuss your options as it sounds as if you were directly discriminated against although the fact that they declared this to be the case also suggests they are confident in their decision.
There are some obvious jobs which it is legitimate to discriminate against an insulin dependent diabetic e.g. flying a plane or operate a crane (not sure if this is still the case) but if you had told your prospective employer from the start that you were diabetic then it sounds as if they have made a judgement call that could be based on unfair assumptions about your ability to work alone.
I am sorry that this has happened to you and hope you can get some good advice on what to do next.
 
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Fenn

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Thats the problem with workers rights, I wouldnt employ anyone I needed to make reasonable adjustments for, why would I?
 
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DCUKMod

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Just wondering if anyone on here has had a job offer withdrawn because you were diabetic. I have , passed medical including eyesight and hearing and the company were told I was diabetic from the start. Measured me up for a uniform too only to be told when I got home that they'd withdrawn the job offer as it was a safety critical roll and being type 1 I couldn't be left on my own .

I'd agree with Nicole that it's important we know the sort of job you were applying for. I know there are some roles whereby it just can't happen.

I'm sort of guessing that HR had either overlooked your diabetes status initially - maybe a mistake, or your application hadn't been vetted thoroughly to that point.
 
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Milky1

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What was the job? I would get in touch with DuK Careline to discuss your options as it sounds as if you were directly discriminated against although the fact that they declared this to be the case also suggests they are confident in their decision.
There are some obvious jobs which it is legitimate to discriminate against an insulin dependent diabetic e.g. flying a plane or operate a crane (not sure if this is still the case) but if you had told your prospective employer from the start that you were diabetic then it sounds as if they have made a judgement call that could be based on unfair assumptions about your ability to work alone.
I am sorry that this has happened to you and hope you can get some good advice on what to do next.
It was general purpose relief which includes train dispatch and unlocking stations early in the morning when I'd be on my own. I did ask if it was because I was diabetic and they said no it's because of the roll !! Apparently I can't be left on my own as I'm type 1 and am obviously about to die if left alone. The fact I've never had a hypo as I manage my bloods extremely well. I said if I didn't have diabetes I could have a heart attack or trip and crack my head open and be on my own so what's the difference.
 

Fenn

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Let's hope that one of your employees doesn't experience a change in health and you HAVE to make reasonable adjustments.
I have two diabetics, one dx once employed, one didnt mention it and someone with epilepsy, also didnt mention lol, I call that smart
 
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NicoleC1971

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It was general purpose relief which includes train dispatch and unlocking stations early in the morning when I'd be on my own. I did ask if it was because I was diabetic and they said no it's because of the roll !! Apparently I can't be left on my own as I'm type 1 and am obviously about to die if left alone. The fact I've never had a hypo as I manage my bloods extremely well. I said if I didn't have diabetes I could have a heart attack or trip and crack my head open and be on my own so what's the difference.
So that is indirect discrimination and I'd be annoyed by their decision too! They have assumed you to be incapable of being left alone and failed to offer any way of mitigating whatever risk they imagine there to be e.g. the fact that you doubtless get good hypo warnings and have glucose upon your person at all times..Perhaps the prejudice is based upon a previous incident but it does not excuse the fact that they have made incorrect assumptions about your capability to do this job.
https://www.diabetes.org.uk/how_we_help/helpline
 

DCUKMod

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It was general purpose relief which includes train dispatch and unlocking stations early in the morning when I'd be on my own. I did ask if it was because I was diabetic and they said no it's because of the roll !! Apparently I can't be left on my own as I'm type 1 and am obviously about to die if left alone. The fact I've never had a hypo as I manage my bloods extremely well. I said if I didn't have diabetes I could have a heart attack or trip and crack my head open and be on my own so what's the difference.

Milky1 - I haven't ever worked for a train company, but I know my colleague, @Brunneria has a bit of knowledge about safety critical roles. I don't think she's around right now, but having tagged her, she'll likely look in when she's next about.

I'm a bit curious about your T1 without hypos. How do you manage to be hypo-free? There are a fair few T1s on here, but most have hypos from time to time.
 

Milky1

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Milky1 - I haven't ever worked for a train company, but I know my colleague, @Brunneria has a bit of knowledge about safety critical roles. I don't think she's around right now, but having tagged her, she'll likely look in when she's next about.

I'm a bit curious about your T1 without hypos. How do you manage to be hypo-free? There are a fair few T1s on here, but most have hypos from time to time.
I have very good warning signs . Anywhere near 5 / 4.5 and I get those tell tell signs and jump on it quickly. Have liquid glucose drinks on me just in case and to show how well I monitor my bloods I've never had to use the glucose drinks in the 7 years I've been diabetic. Jelly babies are my go-to if I do need a top up witch is once every 3 or 4 months I may have a slight low
 
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Milky1

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I have very good warning signs . Anywhere near 5 / 4.5 and I get those tell tell signs and jump on it quickly. Have liquid glucose drinks on me just in case and to show how well I monitor my bloods I've never had to use the glucose drinks in the 7 years I've been diabetic. Jelly babies are my go-to if I do need a top up witch is once every 3 or 4 months I may have a slight low
That's which not witch !
 

Brunneria

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Hi, just popping in.
Sorry to hear about your job disappointment @Milky1
I can appreciate how frustrating it must be, especially when you thought you had it in the bag.

My understanding of this is secondhand (my husband works on the railway) and I cannot say whether this applies to any of the other franchises. But I can confirm that the company that employs him does not allow insulin users to hold safety critical roles. This is an absolute, non-negotiable condition of employment. A requirement of the company’s insurance, operation and health and safety.

Safety critical roles come in a range of different types. Train drivers, guards, other roles such as the one you applied for. There are stringent standards applied, including medical checks, regular physicals, drug testing, eye tests, and so on. There is a (long) list of drugs that safety critical staff cannot take while doing the job. Insulin is on that list. The list also includes alcohol (staff cannot have any alcohol in their bloodstream when in uniform or on railway property, at risk of instant dismissal) and most cough medicines are forbidden, amongst many more rules and regs. Other health conditions are also listed, from some heart conditions and epilepsy to glaucoma and even fatigue. Yes, a safety critical staff member turning up to a shift ‘unrested’ would be subject to having the book thrown at them, if they dropped the ball in any way during that shift.

Imagine, for a moment, if a staff member had an accident while subject to a condition that increased such risk. Imagine if members of the public were injured as a result. The friends and family of the victims would be furious and sue the pants off the company who had irresponsibly allowed the situation to develop. The company would be subject to massive government fines.

Unfortunately, the decision won’t have been about whether you have hypos. It will have been based on an absolute rule which they cannot bend for fear of invalidating their insurance and duty of care to their passengers.

Consequently, I would suggest that the error was in offering you the job in the first place, not in withdrawing the offer when they recognised the offer was invalid.
 
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Milky1

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Type of diabetes
Type 1
Hi, just popping in.
Sorry to hear about your job disappointment @Milky1
I can appreciate how frustrating it must be, especially when you thought you had it in the bag.

My understanding of this is secondhand (my husband works on the railway) and I cannot say whether this applies to any of the other franchises. But I can confirm that the company that employs him does not allow insulin users to hold safety critical roles. This is an absolute, non-negotiable condition of employment. A requirement of the company’s insurance, operation and health and safety.

Safety critical roles come in a range of different types. Train drivers, guards, other roles such as the one you applied for. There are stringent standards applied, including medical checks, regular physicals, drug testing, eye tests, and so on. There is a (long) list of drugs that safety critical staff cannot take while doing the job. Insulin is on that list. The list also includes alcohol (staff cannot have any alcohol in their bloodstream when in uniform or on railway property, at risk of instant dismissal) and most cough medicines are forbidden, amongst many more rules and regs. Other health conditions are also listed, from some heart conditions and epilepsy to glaucoma and even fatigue. Yes, a safety critical staff member turning up to a shift ‘unrested’ would be subject to having the book thrown at them, if they dropped the ball in any way during that shift.

Imagine, for a moment, if a staff member had an accident while subject to a condition that increased such risk. Imagine if members of the public were injured as a result. The friends and family of the victims would be furious and sue the pants off the company who had irresponsibly allowed the situation to develop. The company would be subject to massive government fines.

Unfortunately, the decision won’t have been about whether you have hypos. It will have been based on an absolute rule which they cannot bend for fear of invalidating their insurance and duty of care to their passengers.

Consequently, I would suggest that the error was in offering you the job in the first place, not in withdrawing the offer when they recognised the offer was invalid.
Strange but I've been talking with my neighbour who works for first group buses and he knows first hand of train drivers who are type 1. And my diabetes specialist in Bath have commercial airline pilots on their books who are type 1. The passage in the OH report that lost me the job said that I should not work alone. When I quizzed the OH doctor after losing the job she said that she didn't mean that I couldn't work alone only if I was alone then somebody else had to be notified I was alone. Someone's cocked up somewhere
 
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DCUKMod

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Strange but I've been talking with my neighbour who works for first group buses and he knows first hand of train drivers who are type 1. And my diabetes specialist in Bath have commercial airline pilots on their books who are type 1. The passage in the OH report that lost me the job said that I should not work alone. When I quizzed the OH doctor after losing the job she said that she didn't mean that I couldn't work alone only if I was alone then somebody else had to be notified I was alone. Someone's cocked up somewhere

I suggest if you are intending to appeal the decision that you ask for the Company's policy/rules/legislation driving the decision. Then you can refer to the same documentation they are.

One thing I will ask though it, would you ever manage to settle with this company after what you feel is wrong-doing?
 
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ringi

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Remember you may be required to work very close to live rails and cross tracks when any hasitation part way will result in death.
 
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Milky1

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I suggest if you are intending to appeal the decision that you ask for the Company's policy/rules/legislation driving the decision. Then you can refer to the same documentation they are.

One thing I will ask though it, would you ever manage to settle with this company after what you feel is wrong-doing?
I have their health and safety policy pack and everything they've told me goes against what's in their own rules. I would still like to work for them though which is why I want to sort this out amicably before heading for tribunal
 

DCUKMod

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I have their health and safety policy pack and everything they've told me goes against what's in their own rules. I would still like to work for them though which is why I want to sort this out amicably before heading for tribunal

Milky1 - These days taking a case to Tribunal isn't cheap, so making full use of the ACAS Early Conciliation process makes all manner of sense. http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=4028

I'm not attempting to dissuade you from pursuing your case, to Tribunal if you think that is the route to go, but I would comment that having been to Employment Tribunals myself (on the corporate side), I know that it's a very, very stressful situation for all parties involved, and "we" always had full Barrister support.

In your shoes, I'd be:
- Making notes and creating a timeline of events
- Getting all my personal paperwork in one place, along with anything from your potential employer. (Personally, I'd have hard copies of everything, then scan it to an electronic folder, somewhere like Dropbox, but I'm a belt and braces old girl, when it comes to important record keeping!)
- Contacting the Diabetes UK helpline, and looking at their Advocacy Pack: https://www.diabetes.org.uk/resources-s3/2017-09/Advocacy pack_EmploymentV3-Jan2016_0.pdf
- Contacting ACAS to begin exploring the conciliation process.
- Looking at all my insurances, like house and contents insurance, to see if any of them cover legal expanses. Be careful if they do though, as some specifically exclude matters relating to Employment Law.

I'd also be having a big think about what I seriously wanted out of the outcome. Going through an ET, then potentially having to take up a role with an employer you have fought in court doesn't really appeal to me, but this isn't about me. :)

It's also long road, and you have to plan what you are going to do in the meantime as all this progresses.
 
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tim2000s

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Imagine, for a moment, if a staff member had an accident while subject to a condition that increased such risk. Imagine if members of the public were injured as a result. The friends and family of the victims would be furious and sue the pants off the company who had irresponsibly allowed the situation to develop. The company would be subject to massive government fines.
This frankly seems like an opinion stuck in the dark ages, given that you can even be a commercial pilot with T1D now.... Wouldn't you say?
 
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Brunneria

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This frankly seems like an opinion stuck in the dark ages, given that you can even be a commercial pilot with T1D now.... Wouldn't you say?

My opinion is irrelevant.
If it is the policy of the company involved (and I can't say whether it is, or not, because I only have second hand experience of one franchise out of many), then for any change to happen the issue needs to be taken up with them, not me. Especially since none of us here have the full story.

We don't know what info was given on the job application, or what was asked for by the company, and at what stage the T1 status was discussed, or how it was discussed.
We don't know exactly what has been said, or why, about the role, terms and conditions, etc.
We don't know the features of the safety critical job in question.
And there is no way we could know any of these things, from a few forum posts.
Taking 'sides' with this level of information is illadvised.

Edited to add:
Actually, on consideration, I find the comparison between a lone worker on the railway, and a commercial airline pilot completely inappropriate. The two jobs cannot be compared, the main reason being that commercial airline pilots usually have co-pilots who can step in, while a lone worker is, by definition, alone.
 
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Bluey1

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I would definitely make a noise about this. Even if you have decided that you don't want to work for such a company, the next diabetic that turns up for a job they will then think twice about using that excuse. All railway positions that are of an operational nature are governed by a national government body. The medical requirements are here. Read Appendix F, then go feed it to them.
https://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/standards/GOGN3655 Iss 2.pdf