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Kedoacidosis

Dudette1

Well-Known Member
Hey guys, so I did something very stupid, I feel an idiot! My hba1c was going up so I got put on jardiance again, I also decided to low carb, what a bad bad decision that was.
The tummy pain started, feeling sick, couldn’t eat, enormous headache, breathing was a struggle, I checked my ketones and they was 7.4 they are supposed to be 0.5
I was in kedoacidosis and got to the doctors, they sent me to hospital and I spent 3 nights in there, feel much better if slightly breathless and weak. how could I have been so stupid! I’m giving myself a hard time at the moment and feel embarrassed and upset. Just wondered if anyone had had this before been type 2 and how long before you felt back to normal. I know we are all different in recovery. Feeling very alone and scared that I’ve damaged my organs.
 
Hey guys, so I did something very stupid, I feel an idiot! My hba1c was going up so I got put on jardiance again, I also decided to low carb, what a bad bad decision that was.
The tummy pain started, feeling sick, couldn’t eat, enormous headache, breathing was a struggle, I checked my ketones and they was 7.4 they are supposed to be 0.5
I was in kedoacidosis and got to the doctors, they sent me to hospital and I spent 3 nights in there, feel much better if slightly breathless and weak. how could I have been so stupid! I’m giving myself a hard time at the moment and feel embarrassed and upset. Just wondered if anyone had had this before been type 2 and how long before you felt back to normal. I know we are all different in recovery. Feeling very alone and scared that I’ve damaged my organs.

Hi, sorry to read you went through a rough time.

What were your BG levels like?
 
You are not alone.
https://www.cureus.com/articles/567...ance-induced-euglycemic-diabetic-ketoacidosis
This family of medications is known to be associated with this nasty kick in the teeth. It seems that this type of medication gets upset if there is no glucose for it to play with. So it must be taken with glucose food so that it can lower glucose levels, which seems to be counter productive. Its a similar dilemma that insulin users find where they matxh the dose to the meal, or if on fixed ratio then match the meal to the dose.

I am wondering if all it needs is a bicarbonate supplement?

Time to flip a coin I surmise. Med or diet?

Note that this form of dka occurs with medium high glucose levels (below 20 but above 10 mmol/l) so it needs you to run at high level of glucose to avoid triggering dka.
 
Note that this form of dka occurs with medium high glucose levels (below 20 but above 10 mmol/l) so it needs you to run at high level of glucose to avoid triggering dka.

Are you saying she needs to run at over 20 to avoid a DKA? Doesn't that defeat the object of taking medication to reduce blood sugar. (Hopefully I'm misunderstanding)
 
Are you saying she needs to run at over 20 to avoid a DKA? Doesn't that defeat the object of taking medication to reduce blood sugar. (Hopefully I'm misunderstanding)
Slighty. Running with blood glucose below 10 on this med seems to increase the chance of DKA. The paper I linked is clear that the G in SGLT-2 is glucose, and the paper makes the inference that lack of glucose is a trigger for the euglycemic form of DKA. There seem to be no reports of eDKA occuring below 10 mmol/l, but it may be that the glucose measured in A&E is due to gluconeogenesis while in severe ketosis. There are reports of SGLT-2 meds inducing ketosis and lipolysis on their own, so could eDKA be an overload of both nutritional and medication induced ketosis? Maybe the meds are interfering with the kidneys?
https://www.kidneymedicinejournal.org/article/S2590-0595(20)30031-5/fulltext
 
Hey guys, so I did something very stupid, I feel an idiot! My hba1c was going up so I got put on jardiance again, I also decided to low carb, what a bad bad decision that was.
The tummy pain started, feeling sick, couldn’t eat, enormous headache, breathing was a struggle, I checked my ketones and they was 7.4 they are supposed to be 0.5
I was in kedoacidosis and got to the doctors, they sent me to hospital and I spent 3 nights in there, feel much better if slightly breathless and weak. how could I have been so stupid! I’m giving myself a hard time at the moment and feel embarrassed and upset. Just wondered if anyone had had this before been type 2 and how long before you felt back to normal. I know we are all different in recovery. Feeling very alone and scared that I’ve damaged my organs.

Dudette, what an experience you have had. You certainly don't want to do that again!

In your shoes, I reckon I would be asking for a change of medication, but that's just me. :)
 
IMPORTANT
If the info in this paper is true, then it may explain why these medications are associated with eDKA events
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK554570/
In particular I note the following text
"Additionally, SGLT2 inhibitors have been found to directly stimulate the release of glucagon from the pancreas, further worsening the glucagon/insulin imbalance, as well as suppressing the removal of beta-hydroxybutyrate and acetoacetate by the kidneys.[] Euglycemia is maintained due to the loss of urinary glucose [] and SGLT2 inhibitor-triggered hypoinsulinemia.[] SGLT2 inhibitors also increase ketone reabsorption, such that ketosis is common in patients taking SGLT2 inhibitors after a trigger such as pregnancy, alcohol, surgery, infection, or starvation."
(the [] are document references that I have removed )

I have seen marketing material for Empagliflozin being put forward as a treatment for obesity in the general public and also as a prophylactic for T2D in relation to heart protection. In that material it clearly stated that this drug used lipolysis (i,e, ketosis) as the mechanism, and that this was enabled regardless of insulin or glucose levels, thereby not requiring diet methodology. What this tells us is that the drug is a chemical override of the body's natural process, and is therefore overriding the normal feedback mechanisms that protect us during dietary ketosis. This drug takes about 3 or 4 days to clear from the body, so this means that the stranglehold on the glucagon remains in place long after the dose was administered. As a result, there is a mechanism here for overdosing. The glucagon it releases inhibits endogenous insulin production and emulates insulin deficiency while the empagliflozin is working. we can only halt it by extragenous insulin.

This is why Low Carb and or keto diets are contraindicated, and it is not a 'maybe', it is a real danger. I suspect that fasting and possibly even skipping a meal is a potentail hazard too. This makes this class of medications a potentially hazardous treatment but it is shortly to be offered to all T2D, all obese, and heart patients if the drug companies get their way. I personally was placed on one of these meds as a heart prophylactic. I have stopped it now because of other serious side effects that I was beginning to suffer and which could have turned into life threatening conditions.

I can only surmise that this medication should be stopped when the fasting blood sugar reaches normoglycemia (around 7 mmol/l) this is only my oponion and has no empirical evidence to back it up, but there will be a minimum level that it should not be used below. Note that it lasts a few days, so dropping the occasional day will not protect.
Note also that insulin users must ensure that they do not drop below this low limit. I would also include RH sufferers as also contraindicated.

The other thing that the original FDA trials data showed was that the drug was only effective for obese patients with BMI > 39 and who had a high baseline HbA1c. The drop in HbA1c after 6 months trial was around 0.65% at best. It was least effective in TOFI patients.

So diet control wins IMO.
 
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Hey guys, so I did something very stupid, I feel an idiot! My hba1c was going up so I got put on jardiance again, I also decided to low carb, what a bad bad decision that was.
The tummy pain started, feeling sick, couldn’t eat, enormous headache, breathing was a struggle, I checked my ketones and they was 7.4 they are supposed to be 0.5
I was in kedoacidosis and got to the doctors, they sent me to hospital and I spent 3 nights in there, feel much better if slightly breathless and weak. how could I have been so stupid! I’m giving myself a hard time at the moment and feel embarrassed and upset. Just wondered if anyone had had this before been type 2 and how long before you felt back to normal. I know we are all different in recovery. Feeling very alone and scared that I’ve damaged my organs.
Hi Dudette,
Sorry to hear about what happened it gives you a real shock...the same thing happened to me about 18 months ago ...was put on Jardiance Duo and was ok just on that then a combination of an infection and going low carb (I didn't know about ketones and their relationship to diabetes). Sort of the same thing as you, stomach and back ache, then headache then extreme sickness.
My wife took me to hospital and thats the last thing I can remember until waking up 5 days later in the ICU....My lungs and kidneys were all affected but the good news is that I am right as rain now but it was a close one and mentally it really shook me up. It really is frightening that they don't fully explain about this drug when they give it to you. I'm on Reybelsus now but keeping a close eye on my ketones and avoid low carb which is a shame as my sugars were really good on the diet and I felt great but I'm not taking any risks now. Glad you'r feeling better.
 
Sorry for the late response guys, my heads been all over the place, and it turns out I am type 1.5 diabetic and I’m now on insulin.
I was diagnosed as type 2 in 2018, but now because of the dka in august of this year and having loads of blood tests, I’m type 1.5
Bit of a shock. I’m still producing some insulin and my c peptide test is 503.
My blood levels in dka were 6.7. I was hoping I would have recovered by now, but I find my legs hurt, I put it down to walking a lot which I do, but I’m starting to feel a bit down and at a loss. I know the shock of 1.5 will sink in like it did when I was diagnosed type 2 it’s just very daunting and a lot to take in. I appreciate all the responses ❤️
 
Hi @Dudette1 I've just re-read your thread.

Though T1 has the disadvantage that you are stuck on insulin, it does have some pros
1) better eligibility from NHS for goodies such as libre or dexcom glucose sensors (as a T1 you are entitled to a libre) and maybe even a pump if you want one (and can convince your clinic that you need it).
2) treatment from a hospital clinic rather than your GP (milage may vary on that, some GPs are clued up on T1s)
3) slightly more freedom in diet as you can now match your insulin to what you eat and use it to control your levels. (Be prepared for a potentially long learning process here).

Lots of virtual hugs.
 
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and scared that I’ve damaged my organs.
Just to say I think you would be unlikely to have done much damage. Obviously we all work differently, but I, like many others here, had poor results for many years (in my case 20), and I still have my own feet and very good, but scarred sight! So try not to panic, just keep as well controlled as you can.
 
Hey guys, so I did something very stupid, I feel an idiot! My hba1c was going up so I got put on jardiance again, I also decided to low carb, what a bad bad decision that was.
The tummy pain started, feeling sick, couldn’t eat, enormous headache, breathing was a struggle, I checked my ketones and they was 7.4 they are supposed to be 0.5
I was in kedoacidosis and got to the doctors, they sent me to hospital and I spent 3 nights in there, feel much better if slightly breathless and weak. how could I have been so stupid! I’m giving myself a hard time at the moment and feel embarrassed and upset. Just wondered if anyone had had this before been type 2 and how long before you felt back to normal. I know we are all different in recovery. Feeling very alone and scared that I’ve damaged my organs.
If I may say in a friendly manner,do not play the "how silly am I " thing in your mind..it has no real benefit for you and simply isnt fair.Use the experience to see what you could have done better and try to apply it,but keep an eye on things and please be kind to yourself.I was a victim of both ketoacidosis and sepsis,ended up in hospital for 5 weeks(delays in seeing a doc caused the sepsis) and I have no idea that I was diabetic until I woke up from a 6 day timeframe when my brain shut everything else down.
I was in a rather unique situation and the docs were rather puzzled by things that happened at that time,however I am lucky to be alive,as I shouldnt be.

Each day is something to learn,I am finding and if one beats themselves,you will spend a long long time with the stick in your hands.
I do hope that things go better,as to feeling better,I am still adjusting,feel very tired easily,my memory isnt quite what it was and my balance is a mess.I used to be able to do alot,but that is now much slower to do and I was told that it can be,for,me 18 months to feel remotely back to normal.
I hope it isnt that timeframe for you,but you have my kindest wishes for a better time ahead and please,be kind to yourself.
 
Hey guys, so I did something very stupid, I feel an idiot! My hba1c was going up so I got put on jardiance again, I also decided to low carb, what a bad bad decision that was.
The tummy pain started, feeling sick, couldn’t eat, enormous headache, breathing was a struggle, I checked my ketones and they was 7.4 they are supposed to be 0.5
I was in kedoacidosis and got to the doctors, they sent me to hospital and I spent 3 nights in there, feel much better if slightly breathless and weak. how could I have been so stupid! I’m giving myself a hard time at the moment and feel embarrassed and upset. Just wondered if anyone had had this before been type 2 and how long before you felt back to normal. I know we are all different in recovery. Feeling very alone and scared that I’ve damaged my organs.
I meant to give you the 'hug' sign but the 'like' sign resulted instead. I hope you're getting better. Don't be hard on yourself, forgive yourself. We all make mistakes. I make many, especially regarding diabetes.
 
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