Keto, Carb Levels & Appetite

bulkbiker · Feb 2, 2018

AdamJames said:
And a steak with a few lengths of asparagus

I just had dinner with 150g of asparagus.. thats about 20 stems and it works out at 3g of carbs..

You have just started on this way of eating after a semi starvation ND test so you are almost bound to put on a few pounds while your body repairs the damage you did by calorie restriction. I think it will take you a few weeks to get used to eating this way. How many meals a day are you having?

I find that nuts are my downfall so have stopped them for a while and am now doing a very strict 23:1 fasting regime with coffee with cream or tea with lactofree at all other times. I'm only on day 2 but bloods are the lowest I have seen this year.

Mbaker · Feb 2, 2018

Everything you mention apart from the raisins and double cream I eat regularly, basically everyday. I have tried loads of combinations of things, such as lots of cardio, heavy weights, HiiT, mainly in the context of lowering blood sugar but my food has been similar throughout. What has worked best for me was changing to a one meal a day protocol and exercising fasted, a 6 kg loss since Christmas:

My one meal is around half a plate of mixed vegetables (similar to what you have), fish or meat protein and either a fat like half an avocado with the meal or with my desert. The desert is around 600 - 700 calories (a bowl) of mixed nuts, 8 squares of Montezuma 100% dark chocolate, 2 scoops of peanut butter (Whole Earth 4.6 carbs / per 100), with mixed seeds. I think the low insulin and fasted training combination has made the difference and a focus on getting good sleep as well. If you enjoy the foods you have listed I would tweak, your eating window and maybe small adjustments 1 at a time, e.g. swapping your peanut butter brand for mine yields 40% fewer carbs.

Kristin251 · Feb 2, 2018

I haven’t read all the posts but true keto is 5% carbs or 20 g or less, which I do. Some say total and some say net. I use total.
Protein should be 15%-25% and no more. The new standard is .5 g per pound of LEAN body weight. Protein spikes insulin and insulin is a fat storing hormone. Then fill in with fats just until satisfied. No need to drink oil.

From what you listed I wouldn’t even consider that low carb. I see too many carbs and too much fat. Carbs + fat = body fat.

And I also see aLOT of food.

I’m not judging or telling you what to do. Simply pointing out what I see to perhaps help you fine tune and reel a few things in.

Keto, nor low carb, bore any diet is eat all the calories you want. Too much of anything will be stored as fat

AdamJames · Feb 2, 2018

Alexandra100 said:
I found Dr B's book very worthwhile. I did skip all the stuff about insulin, as I'm not on that at present, nor likely to be given it for a long while at least (barring a sharp deterioration in my condition). However I note that Jenny Ruhl recommends Dr B as THE expert on insulin bar none, so those chapters would be good to have in stock if/when the time comes. He is also of course expert on very low carb, having invented it as a treatment for diabetes! You could also skip the recipes and the advice on how to exercise, though the advice TO exercise, given with passion by an elderly man who has been T1 almost all his life and still does vigorous workouts at age 83, is inspiring.

Jenny Ruhl's "Your Diabetes Questions Answered" https://www.amazon.co.uk/Your-Diabetes-Questions-Answered-Practical-ebook/dp/B071YW7LVW/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1517592088&sr=1-5&refinements=p_27:jenny+ruhl might suit you better. It is a much slimmer volume and entirely oriented to T2. It is in a question and answer format which you might like, as you can identify and skip any questions that don't interest you. JR comes across as much more human than Dr B. She admits to burnout, to struggling with her weight. She advises adopting a diet you can live with rather than one that will give you perfect bgs.

No, much as I value the Forum, IMO one should take everything read here with a big pinch of salt. We are not experts, we have not done the huge amount of research over decades that these two writers have done. I would urge anyone to get hold of and read both of these books, but probably starting with JR as Dr B is a bit alarming for beginners. Then you will have a good foundation on which to stand when evaluating the often conflicting views you are reading here.

I appreciate that overview, thank you! Sounds like great advice.

AdamJames · Feb 2, 2018

bulkbiker said:
I just had dinner with 150g of asparagus.. thats about 20 stems and it works out at 3g of carbs..

You have just started on this way of eating after a semi starvation ND test so you are almost bound to put on a few pounds while your body repairs the damage you did by calorie restriction. I think it will take you a few weeks to get used to eating this way. How many meals a day are you having?

I find that nuts are my downfall so have stopped them for a while and am now doing a very strict 23:1 fasting regime with coffee with cream or tea with lactofree at all other times. I'm only on day 2 but bloods are the lowest I have seen this year.

That's just made me check and compare green beans to asparagus. Asparagus is much lower in carbs than green beans. Good job as I've just finished my green bean supply and bough some asparagus!

I was only on the ND for a few days, not as long as some extended fasts, I'm hoping I haven't done 'damage' as such! I'm thinking that having well in excess of maintenance calories is what is causing the weight gain, sometimes the simple explanations are the best.

Re meals per day, generally 3. But sometimes the 'snacking' is of meal proportions so it's a bit blurred.

Does 23:1 fasting mean eating all you want in a 1 hour window?

AdamJames · Feb 2, 2018

Mbaker said:
Everything you mention apart from the raisins and double cream I eat regularly, basically everyday. I have tried loads of combinations of things, such as lots of cardio, heavy weights, HiiT, mainly in the context of lowering blood sugar but my food has been similar throughout. What has worked best for me was changing to a one meal a day protocol and exercising fasted, a 6 kg loss since Christmas:

View attachment 25095

My one meal is around half a plate of mixed vegetables (similar to what you have), fish or meat protein and either a fat like half an avocado with the meal or with my desert. The desert is around 600 - 700 calories (a bowl) of mixed nuts, 8 squares of Montezuma 100% dark chocolate, 2 scoops of peanut butter (Whole Earth 4.6 carbs / per 100), with mixed seeds. I think the low insulin and fasted training combination has made the difference and a focus on getting good sleep as well. If you enjoy the foods you have listed I would tweak, your eating window and maybe small adjustments 1 at a time, e.g. swapping your peanut butter brand for mine yields 40% fewer carbs.

Eating windows is definitely something for me to explore. I've been spreading eating all over the day recently. I got a great result with fasting a few days ago.

I do think I have to eliminate some foods for now however - yes I enjoy peanut butter, but a little too much, which is, I think, part of the problem!

bulkbiker · Feb 2, 2018

AdamJames said:
That's just made me check and compare green beans to asparagus. Asparagus is much lower in carbs than green beans. Good job as I've just finished my green bean supply and bough some asparagus!

I was only on the ND for a few days, not as long as some extended fasts, I'm hoping I haven't done 'damage' as such! I'm thinking that having well in excess of maintenance calories is what is causing the weight gain, sometimes the simple explanations are the best.

Re meals per day, generally 3. But sometimes the 'snacking' is of meal proportions so it's a bit blurred.

Does 23:1 fasting mean eating all you want in a 1 hour window?

Yes that's exactly what I'm trying for this month. I think I was drifting into snacking and extra cream and milk (glugging) when making tea and coffee so decided to tighten up my regime to see if I can work through my current weight loss plateau.

Fasting has been shown to boost metabolic rate whereas calorie restriction can lead to metabolic slowdown (yes eating nothing and eating a little and often can have different outcomes). Also not eating doesn't cause insulin responses whereas eating does.
I'd still suggest you skip a meal and the snacks and eat a couple of meals a day within a restricted window between say 12 noon and 8 pm and see how you get on. I wouldn't worry about calories at all for a couple of months but get used to eating low carb. If it's something that suits you then you'll want to stick with it anyway so it will be for life.

AdamJames · Feb 2, 2018

Kristin251 said:
I haven’t read all the posts but true keto is 5% carbs or 20 g or less, which I do. Some say total and some say net. I use total.
Protein should be 15%-25% and no more. The new standard is .5 g per pound of LEAN body weight. Protein spikes insulin and insulin is a fat storing hormone. Then fill in with fats just until satisfied. No need to drink oil.

From what you listed I wouldn’t even consider that low carb. I see too many carbs and too much fat. Carbs + fat = body fat.

And I also see aLOT of food.

I’m not judging or telling you what to do. Simply pointing out what I see to perhaps help you fine tune and reel a few things in.

Keto, nor low carb, bore any diet is eat all the calories you want. Too much of anything will be stored as fat

No judgement perceived at all, I'm new to this an looking for any advice like that! Thank you.

bulkbiker · Feb 2, 2018

AdamJames said:
yes I enjoy peanut butter

Has it been cut with veg oil .. check the ingredients.

AdamJames · Feb 2, 2018

bulkbiker said:
Yes that's exactly what I'm trying for this month. I think I was drifting into snacking and extra cream and milk (glugging) when making tea and coffee so decided to tighten up my regime to see if I can work through my current weight loss plateau.

Fasting has been shown to boost metabolic rate whereas calorie restriction can lead to metabolic slowdown (yes eating nothing and eating a little and often can have different outcomes). Also not eating doesn't cause insulin responses whereas eating does.
I'd still suggest you skip a meal and the snacks and eat a couple of meals a day within a restricted window between say 12 noon and 8 pm and see how you get on. I wouldn't worry about calories at all for a couple of months but get used to eating low carb. If it's something that suits you then you'll want to stick with it anyway so it will be for life.

Skipping meals / fasting is definitely something I'll be exploring, I was really pleased with a day-long fast when I first tried it. It's a bit difficult at the moment - either I'm at work and find my mental state isn't up to 'the job' without food, or it's the weekend and I want energy for walking. But I'll find a way.

I honestly don't think it's safe for me to ignore calories at the moment. I'm just not getting the 'satiety' effect. I've been eating a lot of fat, putting on weight, and not feeling good. I've started getting chest pains again - this happened a while ago when I shifted to high fat. I think I can get into keto, but I need to be sensible and not ignore my body telling me it's not happy. Everyone is different, and I don't feel I should carry on eating as much as I want based on what I'm currently observing and how I'm feeling.

AdamJames · Feb 2, 2018

bulkbiker said:
Has it been cut with veg oil .. check the ingredients.

Yes it had. It's in the bin outside now but I'm pretty sure it listed peanut oil, palm oil and salt. Was only 97% peanuts I think. The best I could find at Aldi. I knew it wasn't ideal, and Tesco is a better bet, it's got a nice selection of 100% nut butters these days.

bulkbiker · Feb 2, 2018

AdamJames said:
Yes it had. It's in the bin outside now but I'm pretty sure it listed peanut oil, palm oil and salt. Was only 97% peanuts I think. The best I could find at Aldi. I knew it wasn't ideal, and Tesco is a better bet, it's got a nice selection of 100% nut butters these days.

And of course peanuts aren't nuts....

AdamJames · Feb 2, 2018

bulkbiker said:
And of course peanuts aren't nuts....

Next you'll be telling me that coconuts aren't nuts!

Actually if I'm honest I didn't know that peanuts weren't nuts

Of nuts of the actual nut variety, I get on best with pistachios. I can make a mere 15 last with a cup of tea, really enjoy them, and not feel a desperate urge to have more. They are pretty high carb as nuts go, but I seem to remember that 15 pistachios (shelled) is only about 7g from when I bothered to weight them months ago.

Alexandra100 · Feb 6, 2018

Kristin251 said:
true keto is 5% carbs or 20 g or less

I'm sure you have got this right as regards yourself, but Jenny Ruhl says that what level of carbs constitutes a keto diet depends on factors such as the weight, size, sex and age of the eater. That under 100 may be sufficiently low for some large athletic young men. She calls Dr Bernstein's 30 g carb diet a keto diet in all but name. However, I was shocked to hear Dr B say in one of his telephone conferences that depending on size some people may have to eat under 30. As far as I know he does not say this anywhere in his book.

4ratbags · Feb 6, 2018

I found learning to stop eating when I was full was the hardest part as I realised I didn't actually know how to read the signs that I was satiated. I find it hard to stop eating freshly cooked meat and it shows on the scales as too much protein is a definite no no on lc. Given time you will work it out, it is definately worth sticking with it as it is great for BS control.

Begonia · Feb 6, 2018

I find that with lowish carbs (40-60) I have to also keep an eye on total calories otherwise I put on weight. Main weak point for me are those 'small snacks' of nuts which can add a massive number of calories in a blink. I couldn't have peanut butter in the house either !

bulkbiker · Feb 6, 2018

Alexandra100 said:
I'm sure you have got this right as regards yourself, but Jenny Ruhl says that what level of carbs constitutes a keto diet depends on factors such as the weight, size, sex and age of the eater. That under 100 may be sufficiently low for some large athletic young men. She calls Dr Bernstein's 30 g carb diet a keto diet in all but name. However, I was shocked to hear Dr B say in one of his telephone conferences that depending on size some people may have to eat under 30. As far as I know he does not say this anywhere in his book.

Agree but I think to "guarantee" ketosis, without the need to measure, 20g max per day is the recommendation. It's certainly what I aim for although after 2 years of eating this way my blood ketone levels are usually quite low I guess because I'm using them all...

Kristin251 · Feb 6, 2018

Alexandra100 said:
I'm sure you have got this right as regards yourself, but Jenny Ruhl says that what level of carbs constitutes a keto diet depends on factors such as the weight, size, sex and age of the eater. That under 100 may be sufficiently low for some large athletic young men. She calls Dr Bernstein's 30 g carb diet a keto diet in all but name. However, I was shocked to hear Dr B say in one of his telephone conferences that depending on size some people may have to eat under 30. As far as I know he does not say this anywhere in his book.

I’m on about 10 keto forums. The standard on ALL of them is under 20 carbs per day. Protein varies a little but most are within the 40-60 g per kg LEAN body mass. The bigger you are the more you can have. Fat is where it varies widely.
I’m certainly not telling anyone how to eat or who to follow/ listen to but the general rule is 20or less. Some say total, some say net.

IMO, keeping carbs and protein low enough to not spike INSULIN is a key component for ME.

To each his own.....

Resurgam · Feb 6, 2018

I have found that fasting is a bad idea as it raises my BG levels in the mornings, so I eat early and late, and that seems to give me normal levels.
I do not restrict calories, as that robs me of energy, so no use having a calorie deficit every day if I am unable to go out of the house to maintain the level of activity I was achieving.
As I know from decades of low carbing that I can lose weight on no other diet - in fact, other diets cause rapid weight gain or physical collapse plus mental anguish at the loss of control, I have a strong incentive to stick to low carb even though I am finding it difficult to keep up with the reduction in my size, particularly around my waist.

Alexandra100 · Feb 6, 2018

Resurgam said:
I have found that fasting is a bad idea as it raises my BG levels in the mornings, so I eat early and late, and that seems to give me normal levels.
I do not restrict calories, as that robs me of energy, so no use having a calorie deficit every day if I am unable to go out of the house to maintain the level of activity I was achieving.
As I know from decades of low carbing that I can lose weight on no other diet - in fact, other diets cause rapid weight gain or physical collapse plus mental anguish at the loss of control, I have a strong incentive to stick to low carb even though I am finding it difficult to keep up with the reduction in my size, particularly around my waist.

Do you only eat early and late, or do you also eat in between?

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