Keto/low carb with fasting

[lcarter]

Hi all. I tried lowering carbs on Tuesday and ended up in a&e with starvation ketosis.. I'm just checking I'm doing this right. I fast 16:8 a few times a week so far, and I eat low as I can with carbs. This is what I've eaten two days straight.

Chicken with skin
Salad
Corn on the cob with tonnes of butter
Cashew nuts

Snacked on pepperami and cheese, and some homemade low carb carrot cake from the ditch the carbs website.

Drinks wise, coffee and double cream and tea.

I've worked out my carbs, after deducting fibre (is this right?!) Is about 33g a day.

Is that good?

I'm feeling a but dizzy and lightheaded, and recently, hungry.

Any advice welcome x

Edited by Mod, as threads have been merged

 

[Goonergal]

Hi @lcarter

No need to deduct the fibre if you’re in the UK. UK food labels list carbs and fibre separately so the carb total is the one you need. If you’re deducting the fibre, you’ll be undercounting the carbs. In the US, fibre is included in the carb total so needs to be deducted, hence the phrase ‘net carbs’.

How low you have to go in carbs to get into ketosis does vary. If you go to 20g or below it’s pretty much guaranteed, but some can achieve it eating a few more. Do you have blood ketone strips so you can check?

If you wanted to reduce carbs a bit, I’d suggest switching the cashews for a lower carb nut (Brazils, walnuts, macadamias are all good) and swapping the sweet corn for a green vegetable. Sweet corn is quite carby.

Try adding more fat if you’re hungry and some salt might help with the lightheadedness.

Sounds like you’re doing great though - a lot of changes for you.

 

[Lotties]

Hi all. I tried lowering carbs on Tuesday and ended up in a&e with starvation ketosis.. I'm just checking I'm doing this right. I fast 16:8 a few times a week so far, and I eat low as I can with carbs. This is what I've eaten two days straight.

Chicken with skin
Salad
Corn on the cob with tonnes of butter
Cashew nuts

Snacked on pepperami and cheese, and some homemade low carb carrot cake from the ditch the carbs website.

Drinks wise, coffee and double cream and tea.

I've worked out my carbs, after deducting fibre (is this right?!) Is about 33g a day.

Is that good?

I'm feeling a but dizzy and lightheaded, and recently, hungry.

Any advice welcome x

I can't comment on your issues, no experience, but I count my carbs as including fibre when I put them in stews as the fibre breaks down too well and becomes more digestible.
Zero carb & fasting this month for me and BG's mostly below 6.5 and sometimes much lower except in the morning.
Are you very fat adapted or have you just started keto? And, what does your BG do when you eat your 33g a day? Are you coping well with amount of carbs?

 

[Lotties]

@lcarter
Did you mean you went to A&E with Starvation KetoACIDosis (not good) or starvation ketosis, the aim of longer term fasts?

 

[lcarter]

@lcarter
Did you mean you went to A&E with Starvation KetoACIDosis (not good) or starvation ketosis, the aim of longer term fasts?

Ketosis, not acidic, for sure. But because I'm a type 2 they wanted to be sure. I've never had ketones before, they were 3.6.

 

[lcarter]

I can't comment on your issues, no experience, but I count my carbs as including fibre when I put them in stews as the fibre breaks down too well and becomes more digestible.
Zero carb & fasting this month for me and BG's mostly below 6.5 and sometimes much lower except in the morning.
Are you very fat adapted or have you just started keto? And, what does your BG do when you eat your 33g a day? Are you coping well with amount of carbs?

Wow, zero carb?! Amazing. What do you eat? How long do you fast for? I'm reading Dr Fung diabetic code at the mo to try to understand.

 

[AloeSvea]

Starvation ketosis? A & E? @lcarter - this is a dramatic entre into low-carbing indeed!

The trouble is we humans should be able to go some time without eating at all, let alone just lowering the carbs for a matter of days, without it being life threatening. Water on the other hand - absolutely. Dehydration can be and is seriously life threatening. But not just knocking out a macronutrient for a couple of days. Our species is way hardier than that.

But, you may have felt like your life was threatened? That I can understand. 'Low-carb flu' has freaked lots of folks out before today, and will probably do so again. To such an extent no fullsome write-up on low-carbing does not include it.

Did you do a good read up on how low-carbing can affect you physically? And what to do to avoid it? (As in upping your salt and healthy fat. And being prepared for feeling a bit out of sorts as your body switches from glucose burning to fat burning - which is absolutely normal and healthy for humans when cutting or dramatically lowering the carbs, or food generally.)

 

[Lotties]

Wow, zero carb?! Amazing. What do you eat? How long do you fast for? I'm reading Dr Fung diabetic code at the mo to try to understand.

I blame zero carb on the good folks here in Carnivore Corner . They suggested I join them in a totally meat January.
So, for the 4 days since Jan 1st ( that was a blowout) that I haven't fasted, I've eaten meat and fat with some seasoning. Lamb steak, rump steak fried pork skin (my favourite), corned beef, roast beef, lambs liver & kidneys, double cream, butter, coffee and Jarlsberg cheese. Looking forward to tomorrow night as I have some lamb neck to stew, some streaky bacon, more liver & pigskin and a pigs kidney; I restrained myself at the butchers this visit. I dont eat huge portions. About 150-200g per meal and a lot of fat.
Not my usual fare, the last 6 months I was 20g low carb OMAD (about 1.25 lb sauted green veg daily) 60g protein and fat - 800 cals or unlimited which was roughly 1800-2500 cals. Lots of eggs for the choline for my liver as well. I went swiftly from 16:8 to OMAD. The 5:2 diet's 500 cal days just made me ravenous - totally unsustainable for me; the same with alternate day fasting. After getting properly fat adapted, I can fast easily for 4 days but my body says that's enough. I never got keto-flu just dry lips (eat more salt for me) and sometimes vit C and a glass of lemon juice water. This month I'm doing a bit of a test reset on my fatty liver and fasting for 3 days each week allowing black coffee and teas. I fast workdays as there's more distractions and less temptation. I couldn't do weekends!
I've been on Jason Fung's website but not read the book.
I hope you get success in fasting. Don't push it and quit earlier rather than later. It's not a willpower and resolve challenge. If you plan 5 days and decideasy to quit after 3 that's 3 great days!

 

[lcarter]

Starvation ketosis? A & E? @lcarter - this is a dramatic entre into low-carbing indeed!

The trouble is we humans should be able to go some time without eating at all, let alone just lowering the carbs for a matter of days, without it being life threatening. Water on the other hand - absolutely. Dehydration can be and is seriously life threatening. But not just knocking out a macronutrient for a couple of days. Our species is way hardier than that.

But, you may have felt like your life was threatened? That I can understand. 'Low-carb flu' has freaked lots of folks out before today, and will probably do so again. To such an extent no fullsome write-up on low-carbing does not include it.

Did you do a good read up on how low-carbing can affect you physically? And what to do to avoid it? (As in upping your salt and healthy fat. And being prepared for feeling a bit out of sorts as your body switches from glucose burning to fat burning - which is absolutely normal and healthy for humans when cutting or dramatically lowering the carbs, or food generally.)

Yes, I felt fine. But I saw the ketones and I panicked- this was on day 1 of lowering my carbs- after my first 16 hour fast- so I certainly didn't consider it would be ketosis which I'd read can take a couple of days at least!

The reason I called the drs was because of jardiance, I have been on it for 1 month and one of the side effects is ketoacidosis- so I had to be checked out.

Luckily it wasn't that!

 

[lcarter]

Hi @lcarter

No need to deduct the fibre if you’re in the UK. UK food labels list carbs and fibre separately so the carb total is the one you need. If you’re deducting the fibre, you’ll be undercounting the carbs. In the US, fibre is included in the carb total so needs to be deducted, hence the phrase ‘net carbs’.

How low you have to go in carbs to get into ketosis does vary. If you go to 20g or below it’s pretty much guaranteed, but some can achieve it eating a few more. Do you have blood ketone strips so you can check?

If you wanted to reduce carbs a bit, I’d suggest switching the cashews for a lower carb nut (Brazils, walnuts, macadamias are all good) and swapping the sweet corn for a green vegetable. Sweet corn is quite carby.

Try adding more fat if you’re hungry and some salt might help with the lightheadedness.

Sounds like you’re doing great though - a lot of changes for you.

Ah, I had no idea, my friend had just lost a lot of weight on keto, and she told me to always remember to deduct the fibre!

Phew, that makes it much easier then.

It means I can go back to tracking on myfitnesspal.

Thanks again for your input

 

[HSSS]

This is why lowering carbs and going keto whilst on some meds needs very careful monitoring. Many drs prefer to stop certain meds before keto is attempted. Some prefer a watch and wait and adjust along the way. Some are dinosaurs and insist you add carbs to cover the drugs you take to cope with carbs.

Do you have a plan moving forward?

 

[HSSS]

And I for one think fasting is easier and more manageable once fat adapted. One step at a time in this sense.

Having launched straight into keto at diagnosis in one go that was enough for me without adding fasting at that point.

 

[HSSS]

Common error as so many websites are US based.

 

[Resurgam]

Cashews are far higher in carbs than most nuts, almonds walnuts, hazelnuts or brazils are better choices. Even peanuts are considerably lower carb, but they are over my limit of 10 percent carbs.
Sweetcorn is a grain so also high carb.
Rather than high carb foods, I suggest trying very mixed salads - I usually have an assortment of things in my fridges, celery radishes mixed salad beetroot, walnuts sweet pepper cucumber coleslaw - so I can make various salads, with various mixtures of olive oil and vinegars plus herbs and spices. For stirfries, courgette, mushroom aubergine, sweet peppers - I use the outer stalks of celery, also runner or french beans or beansprouts. It means that you get a fair bit to eat even on low carb. Many people find that their numbers are good if they stick to under 50 gm of carbs per day.

 

[Lotties]

Yes, I felt fine. But I saw the ketones and I panicked- this was on day 1 of lowering my carbs- after my first 16 hour fast- so I certainly didn't consider it would be ketosis which I'd read can take a couple of days at least!

The reason I called the drs was because of jardiance, I have been on it for 1 month and one of the side effects is ketoacidosis- so I had to be checked out.

Luckily it wasn't that!

Wise decision.
Luckily, I don't take any diabetes meds, they seem tricksy to manage. I dont measure ketones either; I wasn't fasting specifically for ketosis but for my fatty liver and inflammation. Planning my nutritious refeed which is the most important part of fasting.

 

[Lotties]

Cashews are far higher in carbs than most nuts, almonds walnuts, hazelnuts or brazils are better choices. Even peanuts are considerably lower carb, but they are over my limit of 10 percent carbs.
Sweetcorn is a grain so also high carb.
Rather than high carb foods, I suggest trying very mixed salads - I usually have an assortment of things in my fridges, celery radishes mixed salad beetroot, walnuts sweet pepper cucumber coleslaw - so I can make various salads, with various mixtures of olive oil and vinegars plus herbs and spices. For stirfries, courgette, mushroom aubergine, sweet peppers - I use the outer stalks of celery, also runner or french beans or beansprouts. It means that you get a fair bit to eat even on low carb. Many people find that their numbers are good if they stick to under 50 gm of carbs per day.

Red peppers can be sneaky and raise my BG swift & high even 25g is challenging atm.

 

[Resurgam]

Red peppers can be sneaky and raise my BG swift & high even 25g is challenging atm.

Other colours are available.
I realized that I could cope with more carbs in the evenings quite early on from diagnosis, so I tend to have the green ones early in the day yellow ones if I eat my first meal late, and red ones in the evening.
After over three years now my ability to cope with carbs has increased considerably, and hopefully you will find the same thing.