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Ketosis and cholesterol

LittleGreyCat

LittleGreyCat

Well-Known Member
Retired Moderator
Messages
4,445
Location
Suffolk, UK
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
Dislikes
Diet drinks - the artificial sweeteners taste vile.
Having to forswear foods I have loved all my life.
Trying to find low carb meals when eating out.
Apologies because this is a bit of a place holder before I forget.

When you are running on glucose there is a control mechanism from the pancreas where glucagon tells the liver to release glucose, and insulin tells the fat cells to mop up glucose. Some people around here don't have that balance working properly and are thus diabetic.

When you are running on ketones the liver switches over from producing glucose to producing ketones, however what is the comparable mechanism to insulin/glucagon to keep the correct level of ketones in the blood and prevent ketoacidosis (the ketogenic version of hyperglycemia)?

The fats are presumably transported from the fat cells through the blood to the liver to be converted into ketones. Are they transported as cholesterol (which I understand is the normal way to shift fat through the blood stream)?

Just pondering if the mechanism to transport fats to the liver when you are LCHF and possibly in ketosis could lead to higher cholesterol if the control mechanism isn't working properly.

Sort of the ketosis version of diabetic. Ketobetic?

Could explain why some people see a drop in cholesterol when going LCHF and others see a rise. Could also explain why some people have familial high cholesterol (hypercholesterplemia).

Further investigation needed, but I thought I would capture this so I remember.
 
well If anyone in here knows it he or she must be a scientist..


I have understood the cholesterol like this ; that (theory-wise) the LDL cholesterol is the transporter that transport the HDL cholesterol around in the blood to the cells that need repair... ..
I think part of the transporting is by use of the power in the blood stream and a lot of enzymes and by the many diferent molechyles reacting and connecting to each other and others the opposite way around... plus the very active White blood cells that eat up "foreing/bad" matter in the blood stream and around the cells...

but maybe you have a good point there, that there can be many more different problems in actions in the different people having type 2 when having bodies with different ways of reacting to almost identical diets...

I think also inflamation can play a great role in peoples difficulties getting their cholesterol down... my personal theory is that raised cholesterol is mainly due to the need of a lot of repair in the body, and not actually in itself a bad sign, but then a sign that there is a lot of other things "bad" in the body ... being obese do create inflamation by that alone in very many people, but there could be so many different reasons why the body would need more repair, some could be a more rapid break down of tissue due to genetics, due to smoking, due to sedentary lifestyle, due to too much food without the needed nutrients and so on and so on...

I guess maybe my theory is also wrong and there are so many simultamously contributing factors that there is maybe not 1 single explanation on phenomenons in peoples bloods... the very complex and holistic organism a human body is
 
I think that insulin is also part of the control mechanism which prevents overproduction of ketones - which is why type 1's can get ketoacidosis, not enough insulin = uncontrolled ketone production. Almost never happens in type 2's, as we still make some (and usually rather a lot of) insulin, so the ketone production never runs amok.

No idea why some people's LDL rises on LCHF (it's a minority) - but when it does happen, it bears investigating further before putting someone on a statin. Cos in most cases, the "higher" LDL is mainly composed of large, fluffy LDL particles, which are health-neutral. Small, dense LDL particles are the ones which, along with triglycerides, are damaging. And guess what causes those to rise? Yup - carbs, especially sugar.

Such a shame you can't get the LDL particle size test in the UK.....
 
@LittleGreyCat regarding ketoacidosis, no worries so long as you have type 2 diabetes, are still producing insulin, AND are not taking the medications discussed in this 2015 article by Jenny Ruhl, author of the books, Blood Sugar 101 and Diet 101...

http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/36474059.php

I recall what Jenny describes happening to a forum member here last year. I believe she was taking Farxiga.

In response to your questions about cholesterol, I turn to ketogenic diet researchers Volek and Phinney for answers. Their books, The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living and The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance dig into the details. You can read their books or watch the four videos below...

Dr. Jeff Volek, Ph.D., R.D. provides a good overview of how the ketogenic diet restores metabolic health in his June 2016 presentation, "Health-Promoting Effects of a Low-Carbohydrate Lifestyle". He also explains in minutes 17:38 - 20:08 how it's actually carbohydrate intake, not fat that actually drive up cholesterol levels...


Dr. Stephen Phinney, M.D. Ph.D. returned to Australia in November 2016.

So far Low Carb Down Under has uploaded three videos, a Q&A, and his presentation divided into Part 1 and Part 2.

In one of these videos Dr. Phinney reports that approximately 10% of Volek's and Phinney's ketogenic study subjects do not benefit from the low carb ketogenic diet. Their lipid profile worsens. These folks do better on a whole foods, plant based diet because they're able to tolerate healthy carbohydrates well.

That said, during the time of weight loss on the low carbohydrate ketogenic diet (LCKD), LDL will temporarily increase, then drop when weight loss stops. The take home message is this: when you start a new diet, get baseline lab work, then repeat every 3 months, 6 months, or 12 months until you're satisfied that your health markers are heading in the right direction or are in or staying within the normal range. :)

As you have time, there's lots of good information in these videos, but I'd listen to Volek first because he lays a good foundation for understanding how the diet works, then Phinney's.

Dr. Stephen Phinney - 'Interactive Workshop – Optimising LCHF for Weight Loss and Health'


Dr. Stephen Phinney - 'Recent Developments in LCHF and Nutritional Ketosis' (Part 1)


Dr. Stephen Phinney - 'Recent Developments in LCHF and Nutritional Ketosis' (Part 2)


Oh, Phinney talks about ketoacidosis in one of the videos but I don't remember which one...sorry. ;(
 
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Thanks - I missed your post until I came back to add this link:

http://ketopia.com/physiological-insulin-resistance/
Edit: Should be
http://ketopia.com/high-blood-sugar...ecial-surprise-hint-genotypes-and-metabolism/
Original link left in to try and avoid even more confusion!

Part of the article and following discussion talks about "pancreas burnout" for people on a long term ketogenic diet.

I've just started digging into my copies of Volek and Phinney again but I am gaining the impression that the blood glucose control in ketosis has a lot in common with the blood glucose control when you are not in ketosis.

Particularly interested by your point about "10% of Volek's and Phinney's ketogenic study subjects do not benefit from the low carb ketogenic diet. Their lipid profile worsens. These folks do better on a whole foods, plant based diet because they're able to tolerate healthy carbohydrates well."

I have the sinking feeling that there may be a small minority whose lipid profile goes up on a ketogenic diet but who may not tolerate whole foods either. More research required again.

One particularly telling paragraph from the link above:

"Follow me here for a little bit: If low carb dieters are not intaking glucose (for the very purpose of reducing an insulin response!) and not activating GIP accordingly, possibly not activating a second phase insulin response (depending on the genetic variant), then according to science, the absolute natural reaction of the body would be to have higher blood sugar levels. While diabetics and ketogenic dieters have the same symptom, one is a purposeful manipulation of the chemical signaling in the body, and the other is a distinct disregulation caused by a complicated clusterfuck of issues (diabetes)."

Oh, and from Wikipedia "
GIP is derived from a 153-amino acid proprotein encoded by the GIP gene and circulates as a biologically active 42-amino acid peptide. It is synthesized by K cells, which are found in the mucosa of the duodenum and the jejunum of the gastrointestinal tract.[3]

Like all endocrine hormones, it is transported by blood.

Gastric inhibitory polypeptide receptors are seven-transmembrane proteins found on beta-cells in the pancreas.
"
 
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LittleGreyCat, will take a look at that link this week.

We have a lot of research on the ketogenic diet. Volek and Phinney believe it works for two-thirds or more of the population, so it's a good first bet. The whole foods, plant based diet is not a good option for me because I have non-celiac gluten sensitivity, and up to 3 autoimmune conditions. All grains are treacherous ground for me, and I have to limit intake of seeds due to my inflammatory bowel disease. All that said, the whole foods, plant based diet works very well for some people.

Yours is the second article I've been presented with today that is saying things counter to what I've learned over the last two years. Is what this person saying a hypothesis? Or has it been researched and proven?

Wish I didn't have to go back to work tomorrow. Much more fun hanging out with you all here. :)
 
LittleGreyCat said:
"Follow me here for a little bit: If low carb dieters are not intaking glucose (for the very purpose of reducing an insulin response!) and not activating GIP accordingly, possibly not activating a second phase insulin response (depending on the genetic variant), then according to science, the absolute natural reaction of the body would be to have higher blood sugar levels. While diabetics and ketogenic dieters have the same symptom, one is a purposeful manipulation of the chemical signaling in the body, and the other is a distinct disregulation caused by a complicated clusterfuck of issues (diabetes)."


"
Click to expand...

I believe that is me in a nutshell!
Especially the sentence regarding second phase insulin response!
And the cluster thingy me watchacallit!
 
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