Dillinger said:noblehead said:I wonder if the above explanation of the risks associated with ketogenic diets is why diabetes consultants are concerned when their patients are in ketosis or following a ketogenic diet?
Oh Nigel! Come on; you're not serious about that post are you? We've spoken about this so many times and almost all of that post is wrong. They can't tell the difference between ketosis and ketoacidosis which is my yard stick for telling whether the person/article/doctor in question knows what they are talking about.
Then all that protein / kidney failure is nonsense; it's like saying if you breath too much your lungs will be damaged. Again, we've spoken about this so much already.
It's well known that high protein diets are linked to high cholesterol? Er, no it's not. For instance the main driver of raised triglycerides is our good friend the carbohydrate...
High vitamin content of carbohydrate? Carbohydrates have no vitamins; that's why all those breakfast cereals and all those breads have added vitamins because they are nutritional deserts.
Best
Dillinger
noblehead said:As I've always said Stephen, if anyone is in any doubt then they are better discussing their concerns with their own consultant for clarification, neither you nor I or anyone else on the forum are medically qualified to give a definitive answer.
noblehead said:With respect Dillinger I've not mentioned ketoacidosis and of course I know they are two separate things, what my last two Endo's have said about ketones damaging the kidneys has been repeated on numerous occasions and lastly on the DAFNE course I attended, I'm more inclined to believe them I'm afraid being experts in this field than anything what someone says on an Internet forum.
soy protein isolate, high oleic safflower oil, soy oil, and coconut oil, plus vitamins and minerals. Microlipid is a safflower oil emulsion. Ross Polycose is hydrolyzed cornstarch.
The ketogenic diet had more than 6 times the fat of the control diet, the same amount of protein, and no carbohydrate at all. Since protein has to be converted to glucose on zero-carb diets, this ketogenic diet is actually protein restricted. The paper confirms that the ketogenic diet operated on the margin of severe protein deficiency.
noblehead said:With respect Dillinger I've not mentioned ketoacidosis and of course I know they are two separate things, what my last two Endo's have said about ketones damaging the kidneys has been repeated on numerous occasions and lastly on the DAFNE course I attended, I'm more inclined to believe them I'm afraid being experts in this field than anything what someone says on an Internet forum.
noblehead said:As I've always said Stephen, if anyone is in any doubt then they are better discussing their concerns with their own consultant for clarification, neither you nor I or anyone else on the forum are medically qualified to give a definitive answer.
xyzzy said:What is often forgotten and overlooked in the argument as to if Ketogenic diets are safe is that they are recommended and treated as long term safe in other fields of medicine that are not particularly related to diabetes or diet.
Simply an illness that can be cured by eating lots of starchy carbs my consultant said......won't be a minute, the "consultant" has just gone to get me a prescription for insulin....borofergie said:xyzzy said:What is often forgotten and overlooked in the argument as to if Ketogenic diets are safe is that they are recommended and treated as long term safe in other fields of medicine that are not particularly related to diabetes or diet.
Is it because epilepsy is a serious and life-threatening condition, wheras diabetes is...ummmmm...
borofergie said:xyzzy said:What is often forgotten and overlooked in the argument as to if Ketogenic diets are safe is that they are recommended and treated as long term safe in other fields of medicine that are not particularly related to diabetes or diet.
Is it because epilepsy is a serious and life-threatening condition, wheras diabetes is...ummmmm...
I know, I know, but the amount of grass you have to get through to get the numbers up - you have no idea! That's why you see my mates standing round in fields all day doing nothing other than grazing!!Paul1976 said:Yes Grazer,150-180 grams of carbs is not enough roughage for a growing diabetic..Repent now before it's too late! :crazy:
xyzzy said:Actually I think the anti ketosis lobby thing is more to do with diet than diabetes. It's the fact that so many dieticians will have to admit they were wrong in the advice they have been stating for the past few decades, not just on ketosis but on strongly related issues such as fats etc.
It's the dietetic professions long term pro stance on carbohydrate that makes a change problematic as diabetes and diet are so obviously intertwined. Epilepsy and the increasing number of neurological problems ketogenic diets are recommended for don't have that baggage or less so and maybe why adoption has been easier.
Doesn't alter the fact that in these other areas ketogenic have been pronounced safe and those who oppose need to say why if it's safe for one group it isn't safe for others in my opinion.
Defren said:My GP as I have said on this forum before, supports low carb ketogenic diets, but he still insists I have a urine test done to ensure no protein.
xyzzy said:What is often forgotten and overlooked in the argument as to if Ketogenic diets are safe is that they are recommended and treated as long term safe in other fields of medicine that are not particularly related to diabetes or diet. For example one of the worlds leading researchers the Johns Hopkins neurologist Dr. Eric Kossoff pronounced long term use of Ketogenic diets safe back in 2009 for epileptics. You can find out more and see an interview with him here:
http://www.thelivinlowcarbshow.com/...off-treats-epilepsy-with-ketosis-episode-367/
More recent studies are beginning to conclude Ketogenic diets are effective against a range of neurological disorders including not just epilepsy but Alzheimers, Parkinsons, brain tumours and just plain aging to name a few.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3321471/pdf/fphar-03-00059.pdf
If Ketogenic diets are dangerous why are the recommended as long term safe for people with these other conditions?
catherinecherub said:[
I don't think you can compare ketogenic diets for children with epilepsy with the low carb diets practised on the forum. They are highly specialised with very few food choices which require constant monitoring, have a range of side effects including growth retardation and require mineral and vitamin supplementation. They are ruled out for fussy eaters and the child has to be highly motivated.
This link is very informative and even shows some menu examples.
http://www.diet.com/g/ketogenic-diets
Modified Atkins diet
In 2003 the Johns Hopkins treatment center initiated a case series of six children and adults who used a modified version of the Atkins diet to control seizures rather than the classic 4:1 ketogenic diet. These patients were not admitted to the hospital; did not have to fast at the beginning of the diet; did not have calories, protein, or fluid intake restricted; were limited to 10-grams of carbohydrates per day; and were encouraged to eat foods rich in fats. Half the patients showed a marked reduction in seizures.
Based on this initial success, the Johns Hopkins doctors drew up a modified Atkins diet protocol for a group of 20 children, as follows:
A carbohydrate counting guide is given to the patient’s family
Carbohydrate intake is limited to 10g per day for the first month
A generous intake of fats in the form of mayonnaise, butter, oils, heavy cream, etc. is encouraged, although precise amounts are not defined
Clear carbohydrate-free fluids and calories are unrestricted
The patient is given a low-carbohydrate multivitamin and a calcium supplement
Ketones in the urine are checked twice a week and weight once a week
Low-carbohydrate store-bought products (shakes, snack bars, etc.) are discouraged for at least the first month
The patient is given a complete blood test and metabolic workup every three months
xyzzy said:Defren said:My GP as I have said on this forum before, supports low carb ketogenic diets, but he still insists I have a urine test done to ensure no protein.
That statement really sums up ALL that is required for a diabetic following a ketogenic diet in my opinion. It is simply a statement that the "patient" should be monitored by their HCP's and is no different to the way we are monitored for BG's via an hBA1c or cholesterol levels by a lipids test or have our blood pressure taken. In fact that simple urine test for possible kidney problems is one of the tests that every diabetic should get at least once a year if the NICE guidelines are being correctly followed by the gp practice.
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