Ketosis

[noblehead]

I wonder if the above explanation of the risks associated with ketogenic diets is why diabetes consultants are concerned when their patients are in ketosis or following a ketogenic diet?

Oh Nigel! Come on; you're not serious about that post are you? We've spoken about this so many times and almost all of that post is wrong. They can't tell the difference between ketosis and ketoacidosis which is my yard stick for telling whether the person/article/doctor in question knows what they are talking about.

Then all that protein / kidney failure is nonsense; it's like saying if you breath too much your lungs will be damaged. Again, we've spoken about this so much already.

It's well known that high protein diets are linked to high cholesterol? Er, no it's not. For instance the main driver of raised triglycerides is our good friend the carbohydrate...

High vitamin content of carbohydrate? Carbohydrates have no vitamins; that's why all those breakfast cereals and all those breads have added vitamins because they are nutritional deserts.

Best

Dillinger

With respect Dillinger I've not mentioned ketoacidosis and of course I know they are two separate things, what my last two Endo's have said about ketones damaging the kidneys has been repeated on numerous occasions and lastly on the DAFNE course I attended, I'm more inclined to believe them I'm afraid being experts in this field than anything what someone says on an Internet forum.

 

[borofergie]

As I've always said Stephen, if anyone is in any doubt then they are better discussing their concerns with their own consultant for clarification, neither you nor I or anyone else on the forum are medically qualified to give a definitive answer.

Well that all depends if you're consultant knows what she or he is talking about. I wouldn't put my health in the hands of a consultant that confuses "ketosis" and "ketoacidosis" just because they sound similar. :thumbdown:

 

[borofergie]

With respect Dillinger I've not mentioned ketoacidosis and of course I know they are two separate things, what my last two Endo's have said about ketones damaging the kidneys has been repeated on numerous occasions and lastly on the DAFNE course I attended, I'm more inclined to believe them I'm afraid being experts in this field than anything what someone says on an Internet forum.

On kidney stones myth is based on the Hopkins where that they basically fed the kids a starvation diet of nasty chemicals, and that weak-bones, stunted-growth and kidney stones are all atributabal the malnutrition.

The diet met only 75% of their calorific needs and was based around:

soy protein isolate, high oleic safflower oil, soy oil, and coconut oil, plus vitamins and minerals. Microlipid is a safflower oil emulsion. Ross Polycose is hydrolyzed cornstarch.

The ketogenic diet had more than 6 times the fat of the control diet, the same amount of protein, and no carbohydrate at all. Since protein has to be converted to glucose on zero-carb diets, this ketogenic diet is actually protein restricted. The paper confirms that the ketogenic diet operated on the margin of severe protein deficiency.

Don't know about you, but I try to get my calories from whole food and cut down on "safflower oil emulsion and soy oil".

 

[borofergie]

With respect Dillinger I've not mentioned ketoacidosis and of course I know they are two separate things, what my last two Endo's have said about ketones damaging the kidneys has been repeated on numerous occasions and lastly on the DAFNE course I attended, I'm more inclined to believe them I'm afraid being experts in this field than anything what someone says on an Internet forum.

I'd humbly suggest that Dr Jeff Volek is more of an expert in nutritional ketosis than your consultants.

 

[Administrator]

Time out guys.

Let's get back to the ketosis discussion. If anyone would like to continue discussion on whether it's best to trust one's consultant or alternative sources, please start a new thread for this but have respect for each other's choices (yes, even if you're convinced it's mad ).

Many thanks
Benedict

 

[xyzzy]

What is often forgotten and overlooked in the argument as to if Ketogenic diets are safe is that they are recommended and treated as long term safe in other fields of medicine that are not particularly related to diabetes or diet. For example one of the worlds leading researchers the Johns Hopkins neurologist Dr. Eric Kossoff pronounced long term use of Ketogenic diets safe back in 2009 for epileptics. You can find out more and see an interview with him here:

http://www.thelivinlowcarbshow.com/...off-treats-epilepsy-with-ketosis-episode-367/

More recent studies are beginning to conclude Ketogenic diets are effective against a range of neurological disorders including not just epilepsy but Alzheimers, Parkinsons, brain tumours and just plain aging to name a few.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3321471/pdf/fphar-03-00059.pdf

If Ketogenic diets are dangerous why are the recommended as long term safe for people with these other conditions?

 

[Anonymous]

As I've always said Stephen, if anyone is in any doubt then they are better discussing their concerns with their own consultant for clarification, neither you nor I or anyone else on the forum are medically qualified to give a definitive answer.

err.. I think this is where I came in .. medical qualification is not all it's cracked up to be.

there's a hole in my bucket etc etc...

 

[borofergie]

What is often forgotten and overlooked in the argument as to if Ketogenic diets are safe is that they are recommended and treated as long term safe in other fields of medicine that are not particularly related to diabetes or diet.

Is it because epilepsy is a serious and life-threatening condition, wheras diabetes is...ummmmm...

 

[Grazer]

What is often forgotten and overlooked in the argument as to if Ketogenic diets are safe is that they are recommended and treated as long term safe in other fields of medicine that are not particularly related to diabetes or diet.

Is it because epilepsy is a serious and life-threatening condition, wheras diabetes is...ummmmm...

Simply an illness that can be cured by eating lots of starchy carbs my consultant said......won't be a minute, the "consultant" has just gone to get me a prescription for insulin....

 

[Paul1976]

Yes Grazer,150-180 grams of carbs is not enough roughage for a growing diabetic..Repent now before it's too late! :crazy:

 

[xyzzy]

What is often forgotten and overlooked in the argument as to if Ketogenic diets are safe is that they are recommended and treated as long term safe in other fields of medicine that are not particularly related to diabetes or diet.

Is it because epilepsy is a serious and life-threatening condition, wheras diabetes is...ummmmm...

Actually I think the anti ketosis lobby thing is more to do with diet than diabetes. It's the fact that so many dieticians will have to admit they were wrong in the advice they have been stating for the past few decades, not just on ketosis but on strongly related issues such as fats etc.

It's the dietetic professions long term pro stance on carbohydrate that makes a change problematic as diabetes and diet are so obviously intertwined. Epilepsy and the increasing number of neurological problems ketogenic diets are recommended for don't have that baggage or less so and maybe why adoption has been easier.

Doesn't alter the fact that in these other areas ketogenic have been pronounced safe and those who oppose need to say why if it's safe for one group it isn't safe for others in my opinion.

 

[Grazer]

Yes Grazer,150-180 grams of carbs is not enough roughage for a growing diabetic..Repent now before it's too late! :crazy:

I know, I know, but the amount of grass you have to get through to get the numbers up - you have no idea! That's why you see my mates standing round in fields all day doing nothing other than grazing!!

Not me. I learned to eat meat and Fat, and drink Rioja, so I can spend time enjoying myself, riding my bike and stuff.

 

[noblehead]

Love the Pic Grazer :lol:

 

[borofergie]

It's not just epilepsy, ketosis is also being used in the treatment of cancer:
http://www.time.com/time/health/article ... 84,00.html

Based on the so called "Warburg effect", which was first observed 80 years ago, in which cancer cells fuel themseves almost exclusively by glycosis. By fuelling your body on fat and ketones, you essentially starve the cancer cells to death.

 

[Defren]

Actually I think the anti ketosis lobby thing is more to do with diet than diabetes. It's the fact that so many dieticians will have to admit they were wrong in the advice they have been stating for the past few decades, not just on ketosis but on strongly related issues such as fats etc.

It's the dietetic professions long term pro stance on carbohydrate that makes a change problematic as diabetes and diet are so obviously intertwined. Epilepsy and the increasing number of neurological problems ketogenic diets are recommended for don't have that baggage or less so and maybe why adoption has been easier.

Doesn't alter the fact that in these other areas ketogenic have been pronounced safe and those who oppose need to say why if it's safe for one group it isn't safe for others in my opinion.

And here is the crux isn't it? The medical profession would have to change it's deeply entrenched views and advice. My GP as I have said on this forum before, supports low carb ketogenic diets, but he still insists I have a urine test done to ensure no protein. I said my energy was from fat opposed to protein, but he still has to protect his own back I suppose. So I do what he asks as he does support me, which after reading this forum, I have learned is a very rare commodity and I plan to hold onto my Doctor with both hands.

I suspect one day a ketogenic diet will be announced to be safe, the signs are there now, if only in small pockets. I shall keep a supply of tissues for those who condemned it as madness, to wipe the low carb egg from their faces. 8)

 

[xyzzy]

My GP as I have said on this forum before, supports low carb ketogenic diets, but he still insists I have a urine test done to ensure no protein.

That statement really sums up ALL that is required for a diabetic following a ketogenic diet in my opinion. It is simply a statement that the "patient" should be monitored by their HCP's and is no different to the way we are monitored for BG's via an hBA1c or cholesterol levels by a lipids test or have our blood pressure taken. In fact that simple urine test for possible kidney problems is one of the tests that every diabetic should get at least once a year if the NICE guidelines are being correctly followed by the gp practice.

 

[catherinecherub]

What is often forgotten and overlooked in the argument as to if Ketogenic diets are safe is that they are recommended and treated as long term safe in other fields of medicine that are not particularly related to diabetes or diet. For example one of the worlds leading researchers the Johns Hopkins neurologist Dr. Eric Kossoff pronounced long term use of Ketogenic diets safe back in 2009 for epileptics. You can find out more and see an interview with him here:

http://www.thelivinlowcarbshow.com/...off-treats-epilepsy-with-ketosis-episode-367/

More recent studies are beginning to conclude Ketogenic diets are effective against a range of neurological disorders including not just epilepsy but Alzheimers, Parkinsons, brain tumours and just plain aging to name a few.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3321471/pdf/fphar-03-00059.pdf

If Ketogenic diets are dangerous why are the recommended as long term safe for people with these other conditions?

I don't think you can compare ketogenic diets for children with epilepsy with the low carb diets practised on the forum. They are highly specialised with very few food choices which require constant monitoring, have a range of side effects including growth retardation and require mineral and vitamin supplementation. They are ruled out for fussy eaters and the child has to be highly motivated.

This link is very informative and even shows some menu examples.
http://www.diet.com/g/ketogenic-diets

 

[borofergie]

[
I don't think you can compare ketogenic diets for children with epilepsy with the low carb diets practised on the forum. They are highly specialised with very few food choices which require constant monitoring, have a range of side effects including growth retardation and require mineral and vitamin supplementation. They are ruled out for fussy eaters and the child has to be highly motivated.

This link is very informative and even shows some menu examples.
http://www.diet.com/g/ketogenic-diets

From the link:

Modified Atkins diet
In 2003 the Johns Hopkins treatment center initiated a case series of six children and adults who used a modified version of the Atkins diet to control seizures rather than the classic 4:1 ketogenic diet. These patients were not admitted to the hospital; did not have to fast at the beginning of the diet; did not have calories, protein, or fluid intake restricted; were limited to 10-grams of carbohydrates per day; and were encouraged to eat foods rich in fats. Half the patients showed a marked reduction in seizures.

Based on this initial success, the Johns Hopkins doctors drew up a modified Atkins diet protocol for a group of 20 children, as follows:
A carbohydrate counting guide is given to the patient’s family
Carbohydrate intake is limited to 10g per day for the first month
A generous intake of fats in the form of mayonnaise, butter, oils, heavy cream, etc. is encouraged, although precise amounts are not defined
Clear carbohydrate-free fluids and calories are unrestricted
The patient is given a low-carbohydrate multivitamin and a calcium supplement
Ketones in the urine are checked twice a week and weight once a week
Low-carbohydrate store-bought products (shakes, snack bars, etc.) are discouraged for at least the first month
The patient is given a complete blood test and metabolic workup every three months

That sounds almost exactly like the diet that I eat, with the exception that I don't take any supplements and that I get a complete blood test every 12 months.

I've mentioned this earlier in the thread, but the stunted growth / damaged kidney stuff is due to the fact that, in the original Hopkins study, the patients were fed a protein and calorie derived (<75% of their calorific need) diet made of chemical sludge. What you describe is a consquence of malnutrition, not ketosis :
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2011/03/ke ... nic-diets/

The vitamin thing is a total red herring, as we've discussed many times before. On a ketogenic diet you end up eating plenty of salad, spinich and brocolli, what viatmin containing foods do you think are missing?

 

[catherinecherub]

If you read my post, I am not criticising anyone's diet here. There are too many variations of the low carb diet here and that is why I say there is a difference. The child would not be helped by sitting down to a meal with people here who think their diet constitutes a ketogenic diet when in fact they have lowered their carbs to suit their meter readings and there is a variation in that due to individuality.

"There has to be a rigid, mathematically calculated, supervised diet". How many people here fall into that category?

The ketogenic diet must never be undertaken without the correct medical and nutrition supervision. The risks of an unsupervised diet can result in malnutrition, chemical imbalance, vitamin deficiency and may even result in death". Would you say that you need that level of intervention?

http://www.thedaisygarland.org.uk/epile ... genic-diet

The growth retardation and weight loss from the diet for the children is real.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22749312

There is nothing personal in my post. It is to illustrate that there are differences in an adult diabetic deciding on a ketogenic diet and a child with epilepsy.

 

[Defren]

My GP as I have said on this forum before, supports low carb ketogenic diets, but he still insists I have a urine test done to ensure no protein.

That statement really sums up ALL that is required for a diabetic following a ketogenic diet in my opinion. It is simply a statement that the "patient" should be monitored by their HCP's and is no different to the way we are monitored for BG's via an hBA1c or cholesterol levels by a lipids test or have our blood pressure taken. In fact that simple urine test for possible kidney problems is one of the tests that every diabetic should get at least once a year if the NICE guidelines are being correctly followed by the gp practice.

Well, as far as I can see, so long as you are monitored then what else can be done? I know by how I feel that this works for me, so with monitoring, I am content with my choices. The nay sayers seem to be against a ketogenic diet just because they can, none of the vocal anti low carbers here and elsewhere have tried this approach. There is no hard science I know of to rubbish this approach, and not even much anecdotal evidence this is in any way dangerous. It's all just a case of people not liking the sound of it, so they attack what they don't understand. Dr Robert Atkins knew all about that, yet does now seem more vindicated than ever.