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Latest Bloods & the Statin debate

Gezzabelle there's a medical misunderstanding about the whole cholesterol thing. I'm a retired nutrition therapist and something I learnt in naturopath college was that taking medication to interfere with your body's cholesterol production is often the wrong thing to do, though there may be extreme cases where it is warranted.

Sometimes elevation of blood cholesterol is a normal desirable body function. If you eat fat, drink caffeine, or get sexually turned on, you'll need extra cholesterol to produce bile, adrenalin, or sex hormones. Your blood test if taken at that time will show a raised level of total cholesterol and LDL, incorrectly labelled "BAD" cholesterol.

Apart from those functions, if you have some atherosclerosis your blood test will show elevated LDL and total cholesterol. But the cholesterol isn’t causing the atherosclerosis, it’s part of the healing process. Cholesterol is a necessary component of the cells being fabricated to patch up the blood vessel wall damage seen in atherosclerosis. It is one of the building blocks of our cells.

It also acts as an antioxidant, to help stop the progress of the atherosclerotic changes.

The only truly bad cholesterol is oxidised cholesterol in animal foods that have been excessively heated and/or aerated. Oxidised cholesterol will act as a free radical molecule in your body, giving rise to atherosclerosis and other tissue damage.

The cholesterol in LDL in your bloodstream has been oxidized in the process of protecting your body’s tissue by staunching free radical particles that you’ve inhaled, eaten, drunk or absorbed through your skin. The LDL detected in your blood test is packages of oxidized cholesterol being shipped to your liver. There it will be recycled to make more fresh cholesterol, to go into HDL, and the dangerous free radical electrons will be escorted out of your body, by other lifesaving antioxidant chemicals.

In case that’s not clear: The HDL detected in your blood sample is delivering fresh cholesterol to the artery damage sites. The LDL is carting away used cholesterol, the part of the cargo that was used as an antioxidant and as a result is now oxidized.

So it’s misleading to think of your LDL as bad. It would be bad if it wasn’t in the process of being turned into the stuff that ends up once again in HDL. That process is definitely good and LDL is a vital part of that good process.

It’s like poop. Would you take a drug to stop you pooping because someone tells you poop is “bad”?

Similarly, fresh, unoxidised cholesterol from clean, organic, animal sources - egg yolks, raw milk, and beef slow-cooked in a crockpot, is very healthy food. Apart from the many vital nutrients those foods contain, the cholesterol acts as an antioxidant, the same way your own internally manufactured cholesterol does. Like all antioxidants, once it’s done it’s job it becomes oxidant and needs to be processed and the oxidant radical escorted out of the body.


Finally – anyone with multiple signs of advanced atherosclerosis, not just high fasting LDL levels; high blood pressure, overweight, diabetes, angina, … should consult a naturopath, someone who is not going to prescribe cholesterol lowering drugs as a first line treatment. They’ll need crucial life-style changes and in the meantime to guard against foods that will make their blood thick and more prone to clotting when swirling through badly damaged arteries. But simply interfering with cholesterol production is not the way to go.

I hope that’s of some help Gezzabelle.
I agree that what you describe here is the current understanding of the basic endocrine function, but I note that your definitions of the functions of HDL and LDL is in antithisis to those described by Prof Ken Sikaris, and the American research papers I have read recently. Thus I am confused as to which does what.

EDIT: Here is a training course I found on the web that gives the basic info on pathways
https://courses.washington.edu/conj/bess/cholesterol/liver.html
 
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Just back from a review for my latest blood tests. I was tested for cholesterol and ferritin again. My FBG is 5.5....Cholesterol 5.9....and Ferritin 171. The rise for cholesterol that caused the retest was a measly point one....and so the debate about putting me on statins began. I said okay....You tell me I am Pre diabetic and at high risk of developing Type 2....I go away with no help or advice from anyone and changed the way I eat which resulted in me losing 2 stones in weight and I got my BG down into non diabetic numbers. You now want to put me on statins that would more than likely undo all of my good work and push me into diabetic status. The fact that my cholesterol had only gone up point one shows that how I am eating ( LCHF) is working. She said I MUST NOT eat butter, extra virgin olive oil, cream, pork scratchings, cream etc.....I pointed out that NOT eating them would result in even more weight loss and higher numbers on everything including my BG. She actually listened to me and finally agreed that I am in an impossible situation.....if I don't eat a little saturated fat I will lose ridiculous amounts of weight and not be able to stop it and if I take statins I will end up diabetic. I have to be retested again in 3 months.....for ferritin and a full blood check if they bother sending for me. The have no clue why my ferritin is high so it seems pointless as they never do anything no matter how high it goes. The doctor said that as long as I am aware of the risks of not taking statins then it's fine for me to refuse them. At least I won the battle this time....as for what I am supposed to eat now...who knows....I am at my wits end from trying to please them. She asked if I had got a diet sheet....I said Ohhh you mean the one that tells me to eat all that ''healthy'' brown bread, rice and pasta and copious amounts of high carb veggies?....she said ...''yes...the one with all the wrong advice on it'' and shook her head and as I left she said....''think positive and keep your chin up''.....easier said than done was my reply as I closed the door behind me.

@Gezzabelle
Hi, Really feel for you. It does sound like an impossible situation. The one positive thing is that it sounds like your GP did actually hear some of what you were saying but unfortunately was not able to offer any sensible advice. Have you seen a specialist regarding your abnormal ferritin level? Just wondered if that was addressed if that could help.
I'm also trying not to lose any more weight as BMI is now under 20. I'm fortunate that I can eat Lidl rolls which I think, if I remember correctly, you now have problems with. Can you up your proteins a bit? I don't go for very high fat but still my fat intake is probably higher than they would recommend.
Are there others on this forum long term diabetics with suggestions?
 
I found NOT losing more weight the most difficult part of my journey so far. I reached my target weight very easily, but maintaining it was a different matter. I just kept on losing. It took at least 2 months of trial and error until I found the right balance. I was already eating a lot of protein and didn't want to increase the carbs. I just upped the fats, bit by bit until I got it right. I was quite concerned about what this might do to my cholesterol, but needn't have worried. I saw yet another improvement in the lipids, and continue to do so. I've maintained now for over 12 months.
 
@Gezzabelle
Hi, Really feel for you. It does sound like an impossible situation. The one positive thing is that it sounds like your GP did actually hear some of what you were saying but unfortunately was not able to offer any sensible advice. Have you seen a specialist regarding your abnormal ferritin level? Just wondered if that was addressed if that could help.
I'm also trying not to lose any more weight as BMI is now under 20. I'm fortunate that I can eat Lidl rolls which I think, if I remember correctly, you now have problems with. Can you up your proteins a bit? I don't go for very high fat but still my fat intake is probably higher than they would recommend.
Are there others on this forum long term diabetics with suggestions?
No one has suggested any tests at all other than a liver scan that came back okay. Basically they say they don't know why it is going up...but tests over and over just confirming it has gone up or down are achieving nothing at all. I am currently looking at my fat intake and will attempt to cut it down. I eat enough protein I think...I make up my meals from meat/chicken etc with good vegetables and include some fat but not excessive. She said omg you mustn't use extra virgin olive oil....I said umm...I only cook in a little bit of it...I'm not drinking the **** stuff!!! When I asked what I ''should'' use to cook she looked at me blank....she had no answer for me. I am able to eat Lidl rolls now. They were affecting my hormone levels and causing blazing hot sweats by seemingly raising my estrogen levels....I have corrected that by using progesterone cream to balance it out and it seems to be working. Oddly enough, I asked about the symptoms I was getting from hormonal imbalance and was told to take estrogen....which is the exact thing that was causing the problem!! When I told them I knew it was progesterone I needed I was told I had no clue what I was talking about and was offered anti depressants instead !! By applying progesterone the problems I was having have disappeared...so maybe..just maybe I know my own body better than they do ;)
 
He said ' eat less!'

If eating less was the whole answer, then we'd all be successful. My GP referred me for bariatric surgery because that was the only way for me to see somebody who could tell me why I can eat much less than my BMR and still not lose weight and indeed sometimes actually gain weight. Just as well I kept I good food diary on my "Weight by Date" software on my desktop. I think I may have overloaded them with my breakdown of what I was eating and what was in it (10 things like fat/chol/carbs/iron/protein etc). I was actually "interviewed" by a psychiatrist and a nutritionist whose major comment about my food diary was "why do you eat so much fish?"

My only consolation is a letter from the NHS stating that I have a weight problem, not an eating problem (there's a surprise) and that there was nothing they could do to help me. I must get it framed sometime.
 
If eating less was the whole answer, then we'd all be successful. My GP referred me for bariatric surgery because that was the only way for me to see somebody who could tell me why I can eat much less than my BMR and still not lose weight and indeed sometimes actually gain weight. Just as well I kept I good food diary on my "Weight by Date" software on my desktop. I think I may have overloaded them with my breakdown of what I was eating and what was in it (10 things like fat/chol/carbs/iron/protein etc). I was actually "interviewed" by a psychiatrist and a nutritionist whose major comment about my food diary was "why do you eat so much fish?"

My only consolation is a letter from the NHS stating that I have a weight problem, not an eating problem (there's a surprise) and that there was nothing they could do to help me. I must get it framed sometime.
At that time, I was walking and using three times the caloric intake needed for my job, than I was actually eating but the locum never understood that.
He dismissed me as eating too much! Never asked the relevant questions or information of why I was gaining weight.

I fear for any patients if this was his 'best efforts'!
 
Interesting article on LDL -c and -p Not all LDL is bad.
http://www.docsopinion.com/2012/11/21/the-difference-between-ldl-c-and-ldl-p/

The more I read the more I see prone to diabetes tagged on every illness going. Either researchers are lazy or getting paid to tag diabetes on everything. Havent decided which yet. Touch wood, so far I am only diagnosed with diabetes, high cholesterol and high blood pressure. I am starting to think my diabetes is because 1) I have a stress related illness 2) I have low Vitamin D 3) I plainly eat too much even though Im at 1300 calories volumes seem to count. 80g cabbage in a day bs ok 200g cabbage in a day bs high (or could be just the stress). I read every ones illness if its related to diabetes hence me seeing everything is linked to it. Dont eat too much protein, protein turns to glucose, you will get problems with you kidneys and liver, eat the eat well plate (no way why would I want to feed my diabetes with more sugar!) Ive never been a big sweet eater. I do pile my plate with vegs and meat though. On top of that I used to eat lots of bread and potatoes. Now I have cut out the carbs Im stuck with eat proteins and fats. Drs are against the fats (hence me looking at HDL and LDL) and protein could give me problems with liver and kidney functions. I cant live off water or maybe I should for a fasting day lol.
 
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No one has suggested any tests at all other than a liver scan that came back okay. Basically they say they don't know why it is going up...but tests over and over just confirming it has gone up or down are achieving nothing at all. I am currently looking at my fat intake and will attempt to cut it down. I eat enough protein I think...I make up my meals from meat/chicken etc with good vegetables and include some fat but not excessive. She said omg you mustn't use extra virgin olive oil....I said umm...I only cook in a little bit of it...I'm not drinking the **** stuff!!! When I asked what I ''should'' use to cook she looked at me blank....she had no answer for me. I am able to eat Lidl rolls now. They were affecting my hormone levels and causing blazing hot sweats by seemingly raising my estrogen levels....I have corrected that by using progesterone cream to balance it out and it seems to be working. Oddly enough, I asked about the symptoms I was getting from hormonal imbalance and was told to take estrogen....which is the exact thing that was causing the problem!! When I told them I knew it was progesterone I needed I was told I had no clue what I was talking about and was offered anti depressants instead !! By applying progesterone the problems I was having have disappeared...so maybe..just maybe I know my own body better than they do ;)
The reasons why you shouldnt use Extra Virgin Olive Oil to cook with. http://www.savorylotus.com/5-reasons-to-stop-cooking-with-olive-oil/ Its fine cold.
 
I don't use Extra Virgin Olive Oil for cooking any more I now use cold pressed British rapeseed oil which can withstand cooking temperatures much better.
 
...there's a medical misunderstanding about the whole cholesterol thing....

Can I adopt you!?.. to take you with me for my appointments..pull you out of 'bag' for immediate lesson when doctor start nagging at me about cholesterol and when I refuse those horrid statins again...:D You would come so handy.....
I keep reading and scribbling notes, but when it comes to talking...I forget most of the facts that I'm supposed to tell him :banghead:
 
Interesting article on LDL -c and -p Not all LDL is bad.
http://www.docsopinion.com/2012/11/21/the-difference-between-ldl-c-and-ldl-p/

The more I read the more I see prone to diabetes tagged on every illness going. Either researchers are lazy or getting paid to tag diabetes on everything. Havent decided which yet. Touch wood, so far I am only diagnosed with diabetes, high cholesterol and high blood pressure. I am starting to think my diabetes is because 1) I have a stress related illness 2) I have low Vitamin D 3) I plainly eat too much even though Im at 1300 calories volumes seem to count. 80g cabbage in a day bs ok 200g cabbage in a day bs high (or could be just the stress). I read every ones illness if its related to diabetes hence me seeing everything is linked to it. Dont eat too much protein, protein turns to glucose, you will get problems with you kidneys and liver, eat the eat well plate (no way why would I want to feed my diabetes with more sugar!) Ive never been a big sweet eater. I do pile my plate with vegs and meat though. On top of that I used to eat lots of bread and potatoes. Now I have cut out the carbs Im stuck with eat proteins and fats. Drs are against the fats (hence me looking at HDL and LDL) and protein could give me problems with liver and kidney functions. I cant live off water or maybe I should for a fasting day lol.
According to prof. Ken Sikaris LDL`s are not a problem, it`s when they get altered and become VLDL`s that they can form plaque in your arteries, and as I understand it , if your triglycerides are below 1 you are not forming any VLDL`s at all so no need to worry.
 
You could always politely refuse the 3 monthly re-tests, saying that they cause you anxiety and seem to be of no benefit. I have been refusing Cholesterol tests for 4 years, I know that I will never take statins so there's just no point having the discussions, just a waste of my time and theirs. My total cholesterol (when last measured) was 9.6 -and I literally never give it a second thought, did you know that the women with the higher cholesterol actually live longest?

Surely an annual test would suffice. I'm sure I read somewhere that donating blood will bring ferritin levels down (sounds plausible). Hope you have a rare blood group and they'd like lots of it.

You have done absolutely, brilliantly well. Just keep doing what you are doing, your body is telling you it is liking it! Have confidence in your decision, it is working for you 100%. Your HDL will certainly have risen, that is bound to be the reason for your measly rise in Total Cholesterol, keep your diet exactly as it is, it's working!
 
You could always politely refuse the 3 monthly re-tests, saying that they cause you anxiety and seem to be of no benefit. I have been refusing Cholesterol tests for 4 years, I know that I will never take statins so there's just no point having the discussions, just a waste of my time and theirs. My total cholesterol (when last measured) was 9.6 -and I literally never give it a second thought, did you know that the women with the higher cholesterol actually live longest?

Surely an annual test would suffice. I'm sure I read somewhere that donating blood will bring ferritin levels down (sounds plausible). Hope you have a rare blood group and they'd like lots of it.

You have done absolutely, brilliantly well. Just keep doing what you are doing, your body is telling you it is liking it! Have confidence in your decision, it is working for you 100%. Your HDL will certainly have risen, that is bound to be the reason for your measly rise in Total Cholesterol, keep your diet exactly as it is, it's working!
That is pretty much what I am going to do ....refuse to go back every couple of months for tests that are achieving nothing. I am aware of the giving blood to ease the ferritin levels but I don't think the nurse or doctor is as they openly admit they have no clue as to why its rising or what to do about it. Testing my cholesterol should be an annual thing and will be from now on. I am far more concerned about keeping out of diabetic figures than I am about cholesterol and it's possible effects and lets face it...they aren't even sure about what effects what any more. Every day brings new guidelines and confusion so I will just go on eating as I am now and save myself the hassle and worry of it all. They want my cholesterol down to 3.0....the only way to achieve that is with statins as we can only make a difference of 10% with diet. 3.0 is an artificially induced state that this particular little body is quite happy not to be :D
 
According to prof. Ken Sikaris LDL`s are not a problem, it`s when they get altered and become VLDL`s that they can form plaque in your arteries, and as I understand it , if your triglycerides are below 1 you are not forming any VLDL`s at all so no need to worry.
Actually, I thinl Prof Sikaris starts the cycle with VLDL, which becomes LDL as it is used by our cells. It is the oxidised LDL (which he calls small dense LDL) that is the artery clogger.

You are right in that trigs < 1 is a good sign and what we need to aim for. There is also a new marker for CVE risk, but I am not sure what the ratio to use is. Anybody got this in their notes?
 
Actually, I thinl Prof Sikaris starts the cycle with VLDL, which becomes LDL as it is used by our cells. It is the oxidised LDL (which he calls small dense LDL) that is the artery clogger.

You are right in that trigs < 1 is a good sign and what we need to aim for. There is also a new marker for CVE risk, but I am not sure what the ratio to use is. Anybody got this in their notes?
Yep, my mistake.....never was much good at the technical stuff!
 
Saw this on another forum and thought of you Gezzabelle

http://anthonycolpo.com/statin-drugs-a-massive-useless-dangerous-scam/

I have spent the last four years reading everything I can get my hands on about Cholesterol / diet / diabetes - it has become my passion, some might say my obsession, and I could recommend lots of great books, but I am aware (I am retired) that not everybody has the time / inclination to do that, but for a succinct summary of the real balance of risks in the Statin debate, this is superb.
 
Saw this on another forum and thought of you Gezzabelle

http://anthonycolpo.com/statin-drugs-a-massive-useless-dangerous-scam/

I have spent the last four years reading everything I can get my hands on about Cholesterol / diet / diabetes - it has become my passion, some might say my obsession, and I could recommend lots of great books, but I am aware (I am retired) that not everybody has the time / inclination to do that, but for a succinct summary of the real balance of risks in the Statin debate, this is superb.
Hi. I am an engineer who used statistical methods to analyse data, but I am by no means an expert. However, I did get hold of some of the data from the ASCOT=LLA trial, as well as some others,and I found considerable evidence of misrepresentation of the results in favour of statin therapy. The whole methodology used to justify the conclusions was blatently false.
I am glad that others have independently found the same as I did, as in:

Researchers David Diamond and Dr Uffe Ravnskov closely examined the data from three controversial statin trials: JUPITER, ASCOT-LLA, and the British Heart Protection Study. They concluded "the presentation of statin trial findings can be characterized as a deceptive strategy in which negligible benefits of statin treatment have been amplified with the use of relative risk statistics, and that serious adverse effects are either ignored or explained away as a chance occurrences."
 
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Hi. I am an engineer who used statistical methods to analyse data, but I am by no means an expert. However, I did get hold of some of the data from the ASCOT=LLA trial, as well as some others,and I found considerable evidence of misrepresentation of the results in favour of statin therapy. The whole methodology used to justify the conclusions was blatently false.
I am glad that others have independently found the same as I did, as in:

Researchers David Diamond and Dr Uffe Ravnskov closely examined the data from three controversial statin trials: JUPITER, ASCOT-LLA, and the British Heart Protection Study. They concluded "the presentation of statin trial findings can be characterized as a deceptive strategy in which negligible benefits of statin treatment have been amplified with the use of relative risk statistics, and that serious adverse effects are either ignored or explained away as a chance occurrences."
This news report on the DCUK site is relevant to this thread, so I am copying the link for reference:

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/news/2016...k-of-complications,-study-finds-99786479.html
 
In the U.S. the government has just announced cholesterol in food is no longer considered risk for heart disease. Also, that eating saturated fat makes your LDL particles big and fluffy and can do no harm. It's eating high glycemic carbohydrates that creates the tiny VLDL particles that cause atherosclerosis, foam cells, and heart attack.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...es-for-americans-go-ahead-and-have-some-eggs/
Also that statin drug use increases risk of t 2 diabetes by 61% in postmenopausal women, and 50% for the rest of us. http://www.m.webmd.com/diabetes/news/20150304/statins-linked-to-raised-risk-of-type-2-diabetes
 
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