LCHF diet to help you lose weight, not diabetes

[jack412]

Maybe the difference is in the quality rather than in the quantity of fats. The Mediterranean diet is characterized by the abundant use of monounsaturated olive oil, particularly in its raw form. Some of our dishes are literally swimming in it.

In contrast LCHF seems to, in addition to small amounts of olive oil, concentrate primarily of saturated fats often on animal origin. It is these saturated fats that, rightly or wrongly, are vilified by nutritionists as being bad for our heart.

the UK seems a lot of dairy,
it's an asortment but olive oil is promoted as the ideal oil by LCHF

 

[jack412]

Douglas you say you don't want to loose the ability to process carbs so do you think that going very low carb for some length of time can make the body resistant to them so much so that if at some point we wanted to increase them would the body reject them in some way This is a question that I have thought about a lot and one reason I will not go very low in carbs because like you.I do not want to loose that ability either. I eat a wide variety of fruit and vegetables grains and pulses but lower on the starchy carbs and I do fats in oils nuts and some full fat dairy but no red meats which I am not keen on this I think is the healthier way for my 75 year old body and cutting down very low on carbs and having much higher fats would not suit it .Could we loose the ability to process carbs by only eating a very low amount over a long time I wonder

they say it's 2-3 days to get a normal response on carbs, OGGT take 150g of carb for 2-3 days before test, so that you have your normal response.
someone is pulling your leg

 

[pavlosn]

Douglas you say you don't want to loose the ability to process carbs so do you think that going very low carb for some length of time can make the body resistant to them so much so that if at some point we wanted to increase them would the body reject them in some way This is a question that I have thought about a lot and one reason I will not go very low in carbs because like you.I do not want to loose that ability either. I eat a wide variety of fruit and vegetables grains and pulses but lower on the starchy carbs and I do fats in oils nuts and some full fat dairy but no red meats which I am not keen on this I think is the healthier way for my 75 year old body and cutting down very low on carbs and having much higher fats would not suit it .Could we loose the ability to process carbs by only eating a very low amount over a long time I wonder

Dear @AnnieC

The "inability" to process carbs that Douglas refers to is only a temporary result of going low carb. It returns once the level of carbs is increased.

Provided you are able to maintain your glucose levels at a healthy level with it, I do not see why you need to change your current diet, which sounds quite healthy, in favor of a lower carb higher fat one.

If it works (for you), don't fix it.

Pavlos

 

[AnnieC]

they say it's 2-3 days to get a normal response on carbs, OGGT take 150g of carb for 2-3 days before test, so that you have your normal response.
someone is pulling your leg

I am just saying I wonder if it would be possible if you had been doing the very low carb diet over a few years and you body had got used to not having them would there be a problem if you started to eat them again Has anyone here done it long enough yet to know if this could happen

 

[phoenix]

Pavlosn,
Here is one recent answer to the question what is the best diet for health .
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...very-diet-and-the-winner-is-real-food/284595/
This is a newspaper report but there is a link to the full paper The problem is that though I think that Katz is right , I also know a some people will disagree.

Jack,
You are of course right about the number of grams of anything people eat will be lower if they are eating fewer calories. There are indeed many people who though eating high percentages of fat in their diets are in grams eating quite low amounts.

I have never seen as high as 60% fat in a Med diet. The Cretan diet which was supposed to be the 'epitome' had about 40% and the Predimed which mimics a Spanish style Med diet had 41%.
But it is about the dietary pattern, and about the types of fats rather than a specific percentage and the other parts of the diet (fruit, veg, grains etc)
Re olive oil, I always laugh when I see people suggesting that a French diet uses lots of butter. I live in the bit of France well known for 'the French Paradox. They don't eat much butter here, the butter section of the supermarket is small, the olive oil section very large (and it's also almost impossible to buy non fermented cream) They also use(d) walnut (and very locally chestnut ) oil.
Our garden has 4 old walnut trees and 2 chestnuts witness, to important food sources in the past. Even this afternoon on our walk we will undoubtedly see people out gathering chestnuts from the fieldside trees.

 

[jack412]

I am just saying I wonder if it would be possible if you had been doing the very low carb diet over a few years and you body had got used to not having them would there be a problem if you started to eat them again Has anyone here done it long enough yet to know if this could happen

one day on carbs can throw you out of ketosis, eveloution has done it all.....dough is just winding you up

 

[izzzi]

If you have managed to pick your way through all the bickering, I would say there are a couple of things you can do. Some people eat low GI. I cannot comment on this diet but @douglas99 may be able to help. Some people low carb, which is reducing the amount of starchy carbs and some of us eat lchf. This is my diet choice. If you go on to the following website, which is written by a doc who specialises in diabetes and obesity. http://www.dietdoctor.com/lchf
When you have read all you can get your hands on, I would keep a food diary and buy a meter. The cheapest one is an SD codefree meter and the strips if bought in packs of 5 work out at £25. Each pack contains 50 strips. I would test before eating then an hour afterwards and then again one hour after that. This will show you what spikes your blood. After a month you'll have built up a menu of things you can eat.
http://www.homehealth-uk.com/medical/blood_glucose_monitor_testing.htm
Whatever you decide, good luck!

Although I like what you say. The doc is not a Diabetes Specialist (Consultant in Diabetes and Endocrinology) , Andreas Eenfeldt is a medical Doctor that has a successful blog calling himself the "Diet Doctor" dealing with health and weight loss.

@Scandichic you are telling us to read things yet you say we are bickering.(double standards)

What about excess fat intake and risk of cardiovascular disease.
"Research shows that a single high-fat meal can result in a fatal heart attack, says one of the nation’s top cardiologists".
“Studies have found that eating just one meal high in saturated fat can be the tipping point that becomes potentially fatal,” says Chauncey Crandall, M.D".(I know just another blog but still readable )



.

 

[douglas99]

@AnnieC

Ignore Jack, Pavosln is correct.
(Possibly Jack wouldn't need to keep trying to discredit me, if he could discredit the facts instead, but he does seem to need to mention me everytime he posts?)

From my own experience, as I keep saying, I did try lower carbs, what it meant was if I did eat a portion of carbs at any time, until I had readjusted over several days, I got high BG numbers. It happens to non diabetics as well, it is a well known fact about the LC diet.

Hence I fully intend to keep at a normal BG range, my ideal weight, keep active, get rid of the final drugs, but above all, still retain the ability to spontaneously eat a meal without having to wean myself back onto any food group.
But it's not a permanent condition, (as far as I know, but it's possible some try a few carbs, see the high numbers, and don't try any more carbs I suppose) it's just it stops me doing anything without a days food packed, or a masterplan on eating,
I prefer to be able to choose the 'best on offer', and not worry about planning to the finest detail.
(Like you, if it's a piece of fruit maybe, or even a 'healthy' Tesco sandwich, I'm fine, my BG will be ok)

 

[phoenix]

I am just saying I wonder if it would be possible if you had been doing the very low carb diet over a few years and you body had got used to not having them would there be a problem if you started to eat them again Has anyone here done it long enough yet to know if this could happen

Most sources say to eat a higher carb diet for 4 days before a glucose tolerance test though I have seen longer cited. I can't find any recent research and most diet trials are short in any case.
However it may take longer than 4 days.
Stefansson and Anderson had very raised levels after their one year all meat diet. It apparently took 2-4 weeks on a general diet for glucose tolerance to normalise
http://www.jbc.org/content/83/3/747.full.pdf
This also seems to be suggested in an answer by someone in the comments on Carbsane's blog recently. ..
Apparently , back in 1963, Randle put non diabetic, healthy males on a low carb diet for 5 days and it took some time to restore normal glucose tolerance. I can't get hold of the paper to check what else the paper said.

"In our experiments five days of carbohydrate deprivation led to abnormalities of plasma glucose, NEFA, and insulin during a glucose-tolerance test which persisted for at least two weeks after a return to a normal diet...After resumption of the normal diet the plasma concentrations slowly returned towards normal, but definite abnormalities were still found after fourteen days, and some may have persisted for thirty-five days." [P.J. Randle & C.N. Hales. Effects of Low-Carbohydrate Diet and Diabetes Mellitus on Plasma Concentrations of Glucose, Non-Esterified Fatty Acid, and Insulin During Oral Glucose-Tolerance Tests. The Lancet.Apr.13, (1963) p.790-94]

 

[Scandichic]

Although I like what you say. The doc is not a Diabetes Specialist (Consultant in Diabetes and Endocrinology) , Andreas Eenfeldt is a medical Doctor that has a successful blog calling himself the "Diet Doctor" dealing with health and weight loss.

@Scandichic you are telling us to read things yet you say we are bickering.(double standards)

What about excess fat intake and risk of cardiovascular disease.
"Research shows that a single high-fat meal can result in a fatal heart attack, says one of the nation’s top cardiologists".
“Studies have found that eating just one meal high in saturated fat can be the tipping point that becomes potentially fatal,” says Chauncey Crandall, M.D".(I know just another blog but still readable )



.

I have not said that the doc is a consultant.
If this is not bickering then I dont know what is. A new member has already posted that they wished they hadn't joined. I find this thread provocative and cannot help but believe that was your intention. It is evident that you are anti lchf and that is fine by me. However I find your arguments unbalanced because you only appear to have read about low fat diets and by your own admission you know very little about lchf and you have not tried it. It is irrelevant to me what you eat or believe - if it works for you, go for it. My objection to your original post was your biased remarks about Lchf and the rights of members to help new members.
The advice I gave to the new member, as always, was balanced and fair.

 

[AndBreathe]

Although I like what you say. The doc is not a Diabetes Specialist (Consultant in Diabetes and Endocrinology) , Andreas Eenfeldt is a medical Doctor that has a successful blog calling himself the "Diet Doctor" dealing with health and weight loss.

@Scandichic you are telling us to read things yet you say we are bickering.(double standards)

What about excess fat intake and risk of cardiovascular disease.
"Research shows that a single high-fat meal can result in a fatal heart attack, says one of the nation’s top cardiologists".
“Studies have found that eating just one meal high in saturated fat can be the tipping point that becomes potentially fatal,” says Chauncey Crandall, M.D".(I know just another blog but still readable )



.

Whilst potentially unhelpful to the overall discussion, making statements like: "Research shows that a single high-fat meal can result in a fatal heart attack, says one of the nation’s top cardiologists" can be extraordinarily misleading. If that high fat meal was 20,000 calories, say, including lots of fat, it may be not the fat that causes the issues, but the complete gorging.

You might as well say that 100% of fatal road accidents result in death. It might be a fact, but tells us nothing, without reference or contaxt.

 

[jack412]

Most sources say to eat a higher carb diet for 4 days before a glucose tolerance test though I have seen longer cited. I can't find any recent research and most diet trials are short in any case.
However it may take longer than 4 days.
Stefansson and Anderson had very raised levels after their one year all meat diet. It apparently took 2-4 weeks on a general diet for glucose tolerance to normalise
http://www.jbc.org/content/83/3/747.full.pdf
This also seems to be suggested in an answer by someone in the comments on Carbsane's blog recently. ..
Apparently , back in 1963, Randle put non diabetic, healthy males on a low carb diet for 5 days and it took some time to restore normal glucose tolerance. I can't get hold of the paper to check what else the paper said.

"In our experiments five days of carbohydrate deprivation led to abnormalities of plasma glucose, NEFA, and insulin during a glucose-tolerance test which persisted for at least two weeks after a return to a normal diet...After resumption of the normal diet the plasma concentrations slowly returned towards normal, but definite abnormalities were still found after fourteen days, and some may have persisted for thirty-five days." [P.J. Randle & C.N. Hales. Effects of Low-Carbohydrate Diet and Diabetes Mellitus on Plasma Concentrations of Glucose, Non-Esterified Fatty Acid, and Insulin During Oral Glucose-Tolerance Tests. The Lancet.Apr.13, (1963) p.790-94]

they ran the test immediately after finishing and 2+ weeks later, they didn't run a test 2-4 days ..so that article doesn't say anything to the main discussion ....unless someone wants to try and say that it's more than 2 weeks

 

[phoenix]

Jack it's a bit like arguing about angels on a pinhead. It certainly takes time, which was the intended gist of my post. I can't say any more than the Randle quote ( but Randle since his name is used to describe the whole glucose/fatty acid cycle has far more credentials than I! )

 

[izzzi]

Whilst potentially unhelpful to the overall discussion, making statements like: "Research shows that a single high-fat meal can result in a fatal heart attack, says one of the nation’s top cardiologists" can be extraordinarily misleading. If that high fat meal was 20,000 calories, say, including lots of fat, it may be not the fat that causes the issues, but the complete gorging.

You might as well say that 100% of fatal road accidents result in death. It might be a fact, but tells us nothing, without reference or contaxt.

I agree @AndBreathe , the comment was not necessary in this discussion, yet if you play your "devils advocate" you may consider what has LCHF v Heart Health got to do with Diabetes in this thread.
Also if you were in your "devils advocate" thing, is the "Diet Doctor" a diabetes specialist or was I being unjust to Scandichic.

 

[jack412]

Jack it's a bit like arguing about angels on a pinhead. It certainly takes time, which was the gist of my post. I can't say any more than the Randle quote ( but Randle since his name is used to describe the whole glucose/fatty acid cycle has far more credentials than I! )

I'm happy to use the GTT specs, you are putting other things forward that when looked at doesn't support it not being the GTT spec

the OGTT get all diets doing it, if they have a 2-4 day eat carbs, one can assume that is the time required to get the pancreas doing a carb normal first release [whatever the term] and the second release for the clean-up [there are multiple releases but you get what I mean]

until there is something that says different, it's 2-4 days to get your carb response back to normal
if anyone finds something. I'll flick an email or two to the endo departments for them to correct their proceedure

 

[donnellysdogs]

I am just saying I wonder if it would be possible if you had been doing the very low carb diet over a few years and you body had got used to not having them would there be a problem if you started to eat them again Has anyone here done it long enough yet to know if this could happen

I have been a low carber for all my eating life.. Now 51. At Xmas (now just Xmas day, but was all of December) I have to put my pump on to 250% basal to balance my extra increased bolus qty's. This is the only way for me to maintain my levels in the 5-8 range for the extra carb values I have in the xmas cake, pus etc... I will not go without my annual inccrease in carbs..

I do not put on any weight from December eatings previously. And this is also suprising because I garden and the horrible weather, I am out less.

However, my body as a T1 can never cope with just an extra bolus qty for the carbs, even after a few days...So for type 2's, I don't know but as aT1 permanent, life time low carber my body does not adjust to extra carbs..

I guess with type 2's you still make some insulin so it is a different story.
My hubby, a non diabetic and a lower carber since Jan 2014 now only has to have a weekend of high carbs when we visit friends or relatives and he can gain 4lb. He doesn't worry now because now he is a normal bmi and knows that he can just go back to lower carbing and the 4lbs will be gone in 5 days.
Incidentally his blood tests lower carbing on my machine always come in between 4.3 to 4.8m ax. Extra carbs and his levels will raise to 5.2-6.0

 

[AnnieC]

@AnnieC

Ignore Jack, Pavosln is correct.
(Possibly Jack wouldn't need to keep trying to discredit me, if he could discredit the facts instead, but he does seem to need to mention me everytime he posts?)

From my own experience, as I keep saying, I did try lower carbs, what it meant was if I did eat a portion of carbs at any time, until I had readjusted over several days, I got high BG numbers. It happens to non diabetics as well, it is a well known fact about the LC diet.

Hence I fully intend to keep at a normal BG range, my ideal weight, keep active, get rid of the final drugs, but above all, still retain the ability to spontaneously eat a meal without having to wean myself back onto any food group.
But it's not a permanent condition, (as far as I know, but it's possible some try a few carbs, see the high numbers, and don't try any more carbs I suppose) it's just it stops me doing anything without a days food packed, or a masterplan on eating,
I prefer to be able to choose the 'best on offer', and not worry about planning to the finest detail.
(Like you, if it's a piece of fruit maybe, or even a 'healthy' Tesco sandwich, I'm fine, my BG will be ok)

Thanks Douglas

 

[sanguine]

Rarely do we have a thread other than LCHF that gets so many people riled up and posting their views on the diet. Douglas seems to be one of the very few who is brave enough to say that he does something different to LCHF so good for him. Maybe it is time for those who do follow different diets but keep quiet about it to feel they can come out of the closet and tell us about them without being knocked back as doing something wrong. It seems we are only interested in what people have to say about their diet as long as it is LCHF and any other ways are dismissed as not being worth doing or listening to Do we think that is the way the forum should be no one should feel they can't say what they are doing

Utter utter rubbish. LCHF being smeared yet again. Douglas 'brave enough', followers of other diets 'coming out of the closet', 'other ways are dismissed as not being worth doing'? What on earth is stopping those not doing LCHF from talking positively about their choices? Apathy? Maybe the proportions of various diets being discussed on this forum are just a close reflection of the reality of what works for people. So there has to be an ulterior motive for these kinds of posts playing the victim card arising time and time again. I invited non-LCHF proponents to post more in a positive rather than just a negative way. Where are they? I posted an example introductory post of mine asking if anyone had any problem with it. No replies.

Newbies are capable of drawing their own conclusions on all this.

 

[poshtotty]

Bravo @sanguine . Although following this closely I've stayed out of the discussion for fear of being castigated as, after exploring all the dietary options, chose to follow LCHF after observing the results of others who follow it, and, already having a little knowledge of nutrition, it made total sense.

Since converting to LCHF, in the space of 6 months, my health and vitality have returned. I've lost weight, my complexion has improved, my bs are dropping, and an accidental side effect is that my rheumatoid arthritis which has been treated with nasty drugs for the past 7 years has improved to such an extent that all joint swelling has reduced, I've given up all medication for RA , including painkillers and I remain pain free. There is no explanation for this except my change of diet.

I could not have achieved this without the support and encouragement of the regular posters here who have encouraged me personally and shared their own personal success stories.

However, I have to say I have found the posts of one particular member extremely disturbing and unhelpful. Bragging about low bs after a night of heavy drinking, take-aways, bags of crisps and cake etc are reckless and irresponsible and give entirely the wrong message to newbies who are looking for a solution to their diabetes - a condition which everyone knows needs to be controlled by sensible food intake and exercise.

EDIT: I had also been taking 40mg of Simvastatin for years but since commencing LCHF have been taken off them altogether by my DN, with my GP's knowledge and consent.

 

[douglas99]

Bravo @sanguine . ......................................................to newbies who are looking for a solution to their diabetes - a condition which everyone knows needs to be controlled by sensible food intake and exercise.

Couldn't agree more, as you rightly say,
' A solution to their diabetes',

not necessary your solution.
And as you agreed with sanguine for saying

'Newbies are capable of drawing their own conclusions on all this.'

So let's stop worrying, and just give them all the information, on everything that works, whether it's our own personal choice or not, and I agree again that exercise is also important