If the adrenals fail to work via the aldosterone/angiotensin/renin system would be a serious criticism of keto diets. In other words I don't believe it! If your adrenals are working properly and one is fit, one will just pee it out again because it will be surplus to requirements. The sick will take on water and put up their bp and water weight!A quick scan of many keto diet sites such as Atkins, Paleo, Phinney& Voleck et al all say salt needs to be increased for a keto diet by about 2g above RDA. The only sites I found who advocate lowering salt with keto diet are the Bodybuilding and extreme fitness blogs, and many of them say to cut salt intake to zero, which sounds dangerous to me. I have searched PubMed and found nothing that relates to this discussion,
I did find this outside PubMed: for this one study into epilepsy in children using keto.
http://www.pediatricneurologybriefs.com/articles/10.15844/pedneurbriefs-14-2-4/
It relates to increased excretion of sodium when in keto, leading to electrolyte inbalance,
In laymens terms, the andenelin/insulin systems work fine, its just that the diuretic nature of the keto diet, especially while reducing weight in the early days, will flush out useful nutrients such as sodium. My furusomide med also does this. It is a well documented characteristic of the keto diet during induction phase. Once fully fat adapted and no longer liver dumping, then salt can be reduced, so I believe.If the adrenals fail to work via the aldosterone/angotensin/renin system would be a serious criticism of keto diets. In other words I don't believe it!
I get the impression you did not read the blog, which explains how insulin triggers the kidneys to release sodium and water, thus overriding the body's natural mechanism involving the adreneline hormone. So as IR reduces due to keto actions , so the need for added salt should reduce too.Tim Noakes has a podcast that deals with athletes loss of electrolytes. In extremis endurance athletes can override the body feedback system but I very much doubt our diet will do it long term, perhaps briefly during the shock of adaption to keto. If we continue to have more than the normal amount of salt in our diet our bodies take on water and we have to pee it out, often having to get up in the night. You have to take furosemide. It gets rid of water and sodium that retains water, unfortunately that drug also robs your body of potassium as well. I take a potassium sparing diuretic. regards D.
I believe that I already wrote that Bodybuilders and in extremis athletes have different dietary requirements. I was covering a large number of people who visit this site because they are enquiting into diabetes conditions. This group would generally not fall into the class you propose, amd many will exercise at a more relaxed rate. It is to these that I address my commentary to.Tim Noakes has a podcast that deals with athletes loss of electrolytes. In extremis endurance athletes can override the body feedback system but I very much doubt our diet will do it long term, perhaps briefly during the shock of adaption to keto. If we continue to have more than the normal amount of salt in our diet our bodies take on water and we have to pee it out, often having to get up in the night. You have to take furosemide. It gets rid of water and sodium that retains water, unfortunately that drug also robs your body of potassium as well. Counter intuitively Tim Noakes points out taking more sodium in vigorous exercise actually depletes sodium in the body rather than enhancing it. We apparently do not need to keep replacing sodium and water it leads to low sodium in the blood!
BTW I take a potassium sparing .diuretic.regards D.
TimNoakes has taken on Gatorade and shown their science is not correct. See net entries for Gatorade and Tim Noakes.I believe that I already wrote that Bodybuilders and in extremis athletes have different dietary requirements. I was covering a large number of people who visit this site because they are enquiting into diabetes conditions. This group would generally not fall into the class you propose, amd many will exercise at a more relaxed rate. It is to these that I address my commentary to.
I also have some issues with the science you are referencing. Adding salt does indeed increase water retention, but does not in itself lead to increased nocturnal micturation, So we put on water related weight.
Where you say <<<Counter intuitively Tim Noakes points out taking more sodium in vigorous exercise actually depletes sodium in the body rather than enhancing it. We apparently do not need to keep replacing sodium and water it leads to low sodium in the blood!>>> then increased exercise itself leads to increased urine production, and also perspiration, which will deplete sodium and potassium, and this is why athletes have energy drinks that contain glucose AND electroltye supplements so as to replace lost electrolyte, which is the converse of what you imply Tim Noakes says. I have not read this particular Guru, but I am surprised if he actually says this. In fact the following shows he does not, but does say to reduce processed foods as a source of excess salt during his 5 day LCHF crash diet. I am on this LCHF path for life and living.
http://www.timeslive.co.za/thetimes/2015/08/20/Noakes-rubs-in-the-salt
Looking at the prime energy drink Gatorade for athletes, has the following
Gatorade Thirst Quencher contains water, sucrose (table sugar), dextrose, citric acid, natural flavor, sodium chloride (table salt), sodium citrate, monopotassium phosphate, and flavoring/coloring ingredients; some Gatorade flavor variations use brominated vegetable oil as a stabilizer.
I assume you are talking about his treatises on hypo / hyper natria. Again I point out that the seminars I have seen are aimed at endurance athletes, and in extremis athletes, and are not really applicable to most visitors to this Forum. Also he is talking about training needs, not a keto diet per se when he is giving these lectures. He does not appear to address the induction phase of the LCHF diet, and offers a 5 day crash course in LCHF which is actually IMHO quite irresponsible,TimNoakes has taken on Gatorade and shown their science is not correct. See net entries for Gatorade and Tim Noakes.
You are right Resurgam, the overall point I am making you make succinctly, there is no one size fits all. We all have different bodies and some of us take different meds. Not everybody is on insulin. Some have my condition others have Cushing's and yet others have Addison's. regards D.If I get cramps, I drink water.
I tried all different supplements and additives, none helped, but a drink of water fixed it every time
I have been replying to the OP posting, OP is recently started LCHF VLC phase, so is still in the induction stages ofHi oldvatar, Since you were excluding special cases I didn't see the relevance of you including a reference to extreme low carb for epileptic children since their systems are not fully developed and I think the work was done in rodent models. One can take or leave the live strong quote which is qualified as I said at the outset, get tested by u&es at the surgery! What concerns me is the one size fits all approach and this need to have a fix for a poor diet on lchf. If the adrenals are bypassed on lchf then the diet would have a considerable negative mark against it. Actually increased insulin inflames arteries and puts up bp, according to Dr. Kraft, the father of theinsulin assay! I doubt very much that medical opinion will state that adding more sodium to our diet will mitigate high bp due insulin! But then again I believe the low carb good fats diet does not long term override normally functioning adrenal glands. Your last quote applies to serious illness and complex drug therapies. Because I have Conn's and take a Potassium sparing diurectic for bp control I have to have my potassium monitored on a two week basis by blood testing. D.
Since you were excluding special cases I didn't see the relevance of you including a reference to extreme low carb for epileptic children since their systems are not fully developed and I think the work was done in rodent models. .
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