Like a 5yr old part 2.

I am confused. The body runs on glucose. Whether the source of that glucose is fats or carbs. Why would muscles become resistant to glucose? The heart is a muscle so this theory would mean that heart muscles can become resistant to fuel? What am I missing?

There is much on the internet ( including keto sites) abount increased insulin resistance being a side effect of low carbing. My understanding is that it is not necessarily a bad thing but a temporary state that can reverse if there is an inccrease in carb intake, which the body adjusts to
Low carb covers a very broad range of carb intake - anything from under 120g - keto is under 20-25g. Everyone will have a different “sweet spot” where diet and diabetes are well matched - the trick and the challenge is to find your own rather than adopting someone elses

The type of resistance you are talking about is not the same as diabetic insulin resistance. It is called Physiological Insulin Resistance and is a temporary state. A slight increase in carbs will halt it. When our body detects the glucose levels are low it triggers the muscles to reject glucose in order to spare what there is for the brain and the red blood cells.

Bluetit1802 said:

The type of resistance you are talking about is not the same as diabetic insulin resistance. It is called Physiological Insulin Resistance and is a temporary state. A slight increase in carbs will halt it. When our body detects the glucose levels are low it triggers the muscles to reject glucose in order to spare what there is for the brain and the red blood cells.

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Insulin resistance I can understand but the OP said glucose resistance. Mix up maybe with regard to ketosis, I mean.

Guzzler said:

Insulin resistance I can understand but the OP said glucose resistance. Mix up maybe with regard to ketosis, I mean.

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As it is insulin that pushes glucose into the cells, it is probably the same thing. The cells rejecting the insulin and therefore the glucose. I could of course be wrong. I often am.

Bluetit1802 said:

As it is insulin that pushes glucose into the cells, it is probably the same thing. The cells rejecting the insulin and therefore the glucose. I could of course be wrong. I often am.

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Not wrong at all, lass. I'm not feeling very sparky today and probably mis6nderstood the whole of the OPs question. I'm off to lay down in a darkened room. As you were.

As @bluetit says, physiological insulin resistance (PIR) is a real thing. But is a very different thing from diabetic IR.

I can speak from my personal experience to show how it seems to affect me.

If i eat too many carbs, my body responds with insulin resistance. I feel heavy limbed, unenthusiastic, disinterested in physical activity and actually get aches in my muscles. Oh, and brain fogged. Even getting off my backside to boil the kettle is sometimes too much effort. I think this form of IR is why the media labels type2 diabetics as lazy slugs. After all, it is extraordinarily difficult to embark on a keen gym schedule when walking to the car is too much effort.

On the other hand, when eating keto, i have lots of energy. And stamina. And a bit of PIR. Yes, I have a bit of insulin resistance. My fasting blood glucose readings are slightly higher than without keto (the rise is less than 0.5mmol/l). Myreadings for the rest of the day are hardly affected. At the same time my energy levels are like a long slow burn, all day. I get up to boil a kettle during the evening and half an hour later realise that I cleaned the microwave, put the rubbish out and emptied the dishwasher too. No aching arms and legs. While walking the dogs i may add an extra half mile because i fancy seeing the view from that hill... Also NO BRAIN FOG. This is the best bit. My brain functions clearly.

There was a horrible time before I got my blood glucose under control when i honestly thought i was experiencing early onset Alzheimers. My short term memory was appalling. It was affecting both work and home life. That disappeared with keto.

So, for me, i see physiological insulin resistance as an excellent thing. Sure, my fasting blood glucose is slightly higher, but my overall control is much better, and I feel great.

I’ve looked for, but never found, any reputable study showing that PIR is a bad thing. There is a lot of internet chunter from bloggers on the subject, but I need more than that. Most of them don’t have, or understand type 2 D, and they focus on slightly raised fasting numbers and muscle resistance, rather than the bits I consider so important - the elimination of brain fog and the boundless energy and concentration.

Plus, of course, anyone who reads up on insulin resistance learns that it can be reduced dramatically by
- exercise
- diet changes
- medication (e.g. metformin)

For type 2s, the first one is easier when keto. The second one is already taken care of when keto. And the third one is often unnecessary when keto. In light of which, any PIR can be reduced using those 3 things. Or by introducing a few extra grams of carbs for a few days, at which point the PIR disappears.

There is no Spoon said:

Cheers Boo,
If I have to up my carb intake to reverse the effect of insulin resistance "refusal mode" in keto then I'm working against myself. Doh!

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Not at all. It only takes a day or two of slightly increased carbs. It isn't forever., and if you can put up with slightly raised fasting levels then you don't even need to increase them at all. I didn't.

My experience with PIR has only happened once, 2 years ago. I didn't increase carbs. I noticed slightly raised FBG (less than 0.5mmol/ on average) and similarly increased levels before meals, BUT no increase in post meal rises, and indeed a drop in my HbA1c of 2 points. It lasted around 4 to 6 weeks and then all went back to normal. It hasn't happened since. That is when I first heard of PIR and did a bit of research. It genuinely is nothing to get our knickers in a twist about.

@There is no Spoon

Can you provide links to the studies about NAFLD and keto?

I would be very interested to read them

@Brunneria - there's been a bit of twitter buzz about this recent study:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1550413118300548

Saying the exact opposite though

Indy51 said:

@Brunneria - there's been a bit of twitter buzz about this recent study:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1550413118300548

Saying the exact opposite though

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Thanks for that @Indy51 - I hadn’t seen that one but there have been a couple of DCUK newsbot articles linking to similar studies.

One I particularly recall (because it was of personal interest to me) demonstrated that a very low carb diet reduced fat in the liver even without subcutaneous fat loss - so it was VLC without being a weight loss diet.

I am finding these new studies that are finally comparing different ways of eating with genuine Low Carbing to be fascinating. Although only when they are well conducted.

Brunneria said:

Thanks for that @Indy51 - I hadn’t seen that one but there have been a couple of DCUK newsbot articles linking to similar studies.

One I particularly recall (because it was of personal interest to me) demonstrated that a very low carb diet reduced fat in the liver even without subcutaneous fat loss - so it was VLC without being a weight loss diet.

I am finding these new studies that are finally comparing different ways of eating with genuine Low Carbing to be fascinating. Although only when they are well conducted.

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And another article about groundbreaking research on fructose metabolism and the liver:

https://www.economist.com/news/scie...omuchfructosemaycauseliverdamagedietandhealth

There is no Spoon said:

Hi Indy,
Thanks for the link but sorry your wrong. The link says nothing about Keto and promotes a Low Carb diet.

It mentions nothing about High Fat.
The HF part of Keto causes the muscles to resist insulin opting to "choose" to use the fat as fuel sending the glucose energy to the brain, and that's a good, no brain fog. But one of the first thing's I read about Keto it crosses the blood brain barrier so why do muscles need to "choose" to resist insulin to feed the brain when the brain is being fed by Keto's?

Led me to look at muscle resistance in prolonged Keto, and my mind is not made up yet I am still looking for long term evidence. Any in- site you have is much appreciated.

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Was the study you are referring to on "nutritionfacts.org" by any chance?