Type 2 Liver dump: should it be discouraged or encouraged?

[DJC3]

I’m a bit confused about whether or not the liver dump/ dawn phenomenon is a good thing or not.
I know it’s caused by predawn hormonal surges and it’s the liver’s way of preparing the body for getting up in the morning.

My fbg levels are still a bit high ( usually in the 6s) as Ive only been following lchf for a couple of months. If I try intermittent fasting by skipping breakfast and/ or lunch my levels continue to rise. Once they reach 8s I panic and give in and eat as I don’t want the high bg levels damaging my body.

I can get the fbg level into 5s by having a couple of glasses of red wine the night before but I don’t know why this works and if it’s a good thing.

Similarly some people advise some fat in the morning: a creamy coffee for example, to stop the liver dump, but should I be stopping it? Perhaps I should allow my liver to dump all that glucose until gradually over time it won’t be so full of it.

I know Jason Fung has likened a fatty liver to an overstretched balloon and I can understand that, he also advises intermittent fasting which is what I’ve tried until the levels got too high for comfort.
Another thing he says is that putting T2 diabetics on insulin is counterproductive as we are trying to cram more and more glucose into over full cells, but it brings down the bg so doctors congratulate themselves on a job well done, when they’ve actually made the diabetes worse! And cutting out the glucose at source ( food) is the obvious way to treat it. I’m wondering if my 2 glasses of red wine at night are actually artificially bringing down my morning levels, perhaps I shouldn’t be doing this ( I don’t drink every night!)

Ive rambled on too long, hope I have explained what I mean though.

 

[Deleted Account]

Liver dump/dawn phenomenon is not a diabetes thing - it happens to most people.
The difference with having diabetes is our pancreas cannot respond the glucose release with insulin in the same way as a healthy pancreas.

I don’t believe you can stop the dump: you can help your body handle the extra glucose.

A few glasses of wine the night before may reduce the high because the liver cannot release the glucose whilst it is dealing with the alcohol which it considers to be toxic and does not want to release it into your blood stream.

 

[Bluetit1802]

Assuming your pancreas produces plenty of insulin, and assuming your hormones are normal (adrenalin, cortisol, glucogen and growth hormone), the only perfect way of stopping DP is to reduce insulin resistance. We all have several methods of keeping it at bay in the hours between getting up and lunch time, but it doesn't completely stop it. The worse the IR the worse the DP will be. If you empty your liver of stored glucose it will fill up again next time you eat. We need this to happen to keep us alive.

The most effective way of reducing IR is to reduce the amount of insulin we produce, and the most effective way of doing that is to reduce foods that trigger a lot of insulin. Another effective way of reducing insulin production is fasting. No food = no insulin required.

Alcohol does help because the liver prioritises dealing with it and isn't very good at multi-tasking, so forgets to dump glucose. (but I would not advocate it at breakfast time!!!!)

 

[DJC3]

A few glasses of wine the night before may reduce the high because the liver cannot release the glucose whilst it is dealing with the alcohol which it considers to be toxic and does not want to release it into your blood stream.

Thanks @helensaramay. That’s an interesting thought, I hadn’t considered it but it does make sense! Poor liver I’m battering it every which way it seems.

 

[DJC3]

Assuming your pancreas produces plenty of insulin, and assuming your hormones are normal (adrenalin, cortisol, glucogen and growth hormone), the only perfect way of stopping DP is to reduce insulin resistance. We all have several methods of keeping it at bay in the hours between getting up and lunch time, but it doesn't completely stop it. The worse the IR the worse the DP will be. If you empty your liver of stored glucose it will fill up again next time you eat. We need this to happen to keep us alive.

The most effective way of reducing IR is to reduce the amount of insulin we produce, and the most effective way of doing that is to reduce foods that trigger a lot of insulin. Another effective way of reducing insulin production is fasting. No food = no insulin required.

Alcohol does help because the liver prioritises dealing with it and isn't very good at multi-tasking, so forgets to dump glucose. (but I would not advocate it at breakfast time!!!!)

Thanks for replying @Bluetit1802 don’t think I’m man enough for red wine at breakfast so no worries there! You and @helensaramay have answered that puzzle for me though, which is great.

Do you think that IR will reduce by lchf and IF but just at different rates of progress then?

I’m not overweight and I know I’m in this for the long game so Id ratherhave breakfast and let it take a bit longer really. I just didn’t want to be artificially stifling my liver by eating a fatty low carb breakfast, if it would be bettr to let it have its dump.

 

[Bluetit1802]

I’m not overweight and I know I’m in this for the long game so Id ratherhave breakfast and let it take a bit longer really. I just didn’t want to be artificially stifling my liver by eating a fatty low carb breakfast, if it would be bettr to let it have its dump.

If you are going to have breakfast, try to eat it very soon after getting up, before washing, dressing and so forth. Be lazy. Sit in your PJs. Also, try not to add to the dumped glucose by adding even more. ie. carb free if you can.

I have red wine in the evenings. Most nights one biggish glass. Weekends more. My nurse recommended it, as do all the healthy heart guides, in moderation. I really must get some of those wine glasses with the measurements on.

I don't know the answer to your question about whether LCHF or IF help equally or otherwise.

 

[DJC3]

Good advice about breakfast early @Bluetit1802 I quite often end up eating about 10am after Ive taken the dog out and faffed around for a bit, but it makes sense to have it earlier if I’m having it. (Coconut porridge or a fry up usually). I love the nurse whovadvised red wine. It’s part of the mediterranean diet too isnt it, so must be good for us!

@hankjam I was a bit overweight, a couple of stone, and carried mostly round my middle. However I had cancer last year ( same time diabetes was diagnosed, but I put diabetes on the back burner at the time) I’ve lost nearly 3 stone now, through cancer every cloud has a silver lining! Cancer seems to be under control so all good there.
Annoyingly a lot of the weight loss was muscle mass, so although my bmi is now 20 and my waist measurement is <80cm I still have quite a podgy tum. This is the area I need to target isn’t it?

 

[Undlosgehtes]

Hey,

for me the DP is also my biggest worry, because my fasting glucose is like one of the highest (up to 7mmol). Have been LCHF for nearly a year now, so quite fat adapted. My assumption is, that because of the fat adaption the liver puts out the glucose, but the preference is the fat, therefore the glucose is floating around as a spare. So gues Iam learning to accept this.....Is this assumption correct?

 

[Bluetit1802]

Annoyingly a lot of the weight loss was muscle mass, so although my bmi is now 20 and my waist measurement is <80cm I still have quite a podgy tum. This is the area I need to target isn’t it?

Are you 100% certain it is a podgy tum, or loose skin? I have loose skin and can never decide if it is all skin or podgy.

I was also diagnosed with T2 during cancer treatment. Double whammy! 5 years clear now.

 

[DJC3]

Hi @Unlosgehtes I know the fbg is the last thing to come down but I’m not sure of the timescale. I expect it depends on just how low carb you are?

 

[Bluetit1802]

Hi @Unlosgehtes I know the fbg is the last thing to come down but I’m not sure of the timescale. I expect it depends on just how low carb you are?

And how severe the insulin resistance is.

 

[DJC3]

Are you 100% certain it is a podgy tum, or loose skin? I have loose skin and can never decide if it is all skin or podgy.

I was also diagnosed with T2 during cancer treatment. Double whammy! 5 years clear now.

No, to be honest I’m not really sure if it’s skin or podge! My tum looks more like a cauliflower these days with all the scars - luckily I was never a bikini wearer.

Brilliant that you’re 5 yrs clear now! Don’t wish to derail my own thread but does it get easier? I still worry about it a lot.

 

[PenguinMum]

@DJC3 and @Bluetit1802 you’ve both certainly been through the mill. Great you are both now fit and well. It seems pithy to complain about DP after that but it is the most annoying thing. It doesnt seem to matter if I eat or not (Keto cheese scone 3g carbs or Sundays Bacon and egg) it carries on till lunchtime. I did get a couple of 5s during the week but mostly its 6s and 7s. I dont seem to have influence over it. Patience was never my strongest virtue.

 

[Celsus]

...
Alcohol does help because the liver prioritises dealing with it and isn't very good at multi-tasking, so forgets to dump glucose. (but I would not advocate it at breakfast time!!!!)

But its a great new angle to this problem @helensaramay brought up, which I never even considered before.
And certainly one I will remember to the day I am put in a retirement home and may want to ask for a little snaps at breakfast to lighting up life a little?

 

[DJC3]

@PenguinMum it is the most frustrating thing isn’t it? Just when you think you’ve got it sussed and have a few low readings, bang! Up it goes again. I take heart from the 2 threads on fasting blood glucose: there are some fantastic numbers there but I expect most of those folk have been where we are at one time, but they’ve done it and so will we.

 

[PenguinMum]

@PenguinMum it is the most frustrating thing isn’t it? Just when you think you’ve got it sussed and have a few low readings, bang! Up it goes again. I take heart from the 2 threads on fasting blood glucose: there are some fantastic numbers there but I expect most of those folk have been where we are at one time, but they’ve done it and so will we.

Yes I dont post on the low chat thread regularly but I cant help it when I get a good result. I have a good bank of meals now that are safe, though I still check each time, as I am sure you do too. So hopefully....in time...

 

[shelley262]

@DJC3 hi firstly wanted to say that you’ve done so well coming through so many health challenges - cancer is definitely not an easy one @nd can imagine too that because you lost the weight as a result of your cancer and it’s treatment it may not have been the healthiest way to have lost it. Still one less thing to battle with as part of your diabetes management target!
Insulin Resistance is clearly the issue for you and low carb eating or fasting are some of the best ways to quieten down the insulin and you are doing great on low carb. Fasting is difficult when you don’t want to lose weight. How about mixing up your IF a bit by eating a good breakfast early as low carb as possible and then fasting until teatime? I’ve heard this can work for people and may be better for your DP . I’ve also read others have a snack in the evening but I’ve never tried this
Other option you’ve got is to look at other ways of improving IR I’ve heard that resistance exercises such as weight training can work although I’ve only read studies. Nearest I’ve done is some fast cycling on an exercise cycle for 3 x 20 secs as hard as I could with a recovery minute in between ( as recommended by dr Michael Moseley - fast exercise )and specific Pilates exercise like the plank and other core muscle work. Recently I’ve started doing a 30min walk out after dinner and that seems to have had an impact for me.
You will get there though I’m sure the fbg is always the highest and even now my fbg is always the highest of the day and sometimes ambushes me!

 

[DJC3]

@DJC3 hi firstly wanted to say that you’ve done so well coming through so many health challenges - cancer is definitely not an easy one @nd can imagine too that because you lost the weight as a result of your cancer and it’s treatment it may not have been the healthiest way to have lost it. Still one less thing to battle with as part of your diabetes management target!
Insulin Resistance is clearly the issue for you and low carb eating or fasting are some of the best ways to quieten down the insulin and you are doing great on low carb. Fasting is difficult when you don’t want to lose weight. How about mixing up your IF a bit by eating a good breakfast early as low carb as possible and then fasting until teatime? I’ve heard this can work for people and may be better for your DP . I’ve also read others have a snack in the evening but I’ve never tried this
Other option you’ve got is to look at other ways of improving IR I’ve heard that resistance exercises such as weight training can work although I’ve only read studies. Nearest I’ve done is some fast cycling on an exercise cycle for 3 x 20 secs as hard as I could with a recovery minute in between ( as recommended by dr Michael Moseley - fast exercise )and specific Pilates exercise like the plank and other core muscle work. Recently I’ve started doing a 30min walk out after dinner and that seems to have had an impact for me.
You will get there though I’m sure the fbg is always the highest and even now my fbg is always the highest of the day and sometimes ambushes me!

Hi Shelley thanks for your very helpful reply. You’ve been quite inspirational to me so I appreciate your input.

I think that skipping lunch sometimes might be a better way to try IF for me, great suggestion. I don’t think I’d manage without an evening meal but it’s easy to keep busy in the day and not miss a midday meal so much.

Its funny you mentioned Moseley’s resistance cycling, Ive just started doing that! I can only manage 3 lots of 15 sec high intensity in 10mins at the moment but I feel it must be a good thing.

I take the dog for a walk each day but she sniffs and snuffles each blade of grass and leaf we come accross, it takes forever and I can’t really pretend Ive done much exercise even if I’m out for an hour - its mostly waiting around. I guess I should get someone else to take her while I do a proper walk!

 

[Bluetit1802]

Brilliant that you’re 5 yrs clear now! Don’t wish to derail my own thread but does it get easier? I still worry about it a lot.

Yes, it gets easier but never completely goes away. The worst time for me now is the period leading up to my annual review mammograms and then waiting for the results. Other than that, the worry fades but lurks! I wish you all the very best.

 

[DJC3]

Yes, it gets easier but never completely goes away. The worst time for me now is the period leading up to my annual review mammograms and then waiting for the results. Other than that, the worry fades but lurks! I wish you all the very best.

YesI can relate to that, I have 6monthly scans and got very tense before the last one. I see the consultant the same day though so not too much time to work myself into a frenzy.
Thanks for the advice and support.