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liver dumps

S

Spiral

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I have realised that I have liver dumps in the morning. I test when I get up somewhere between 7-7.30 and then don't have breakfast until 9ish.

Would eating sooner minimise them? Does my body simply have a bad habit and can I educate it away from liver dumping?

What do you do to manage them?
 
Hi spiral
I often have liver dumps forst thing in the morning, Yes eating sooner would help!
Hi jan
a liver dump is when your liver thinks that there is not enough glucose in your body so it dumps some! The thing you will notice is that when you have not eaten for a period of time your blood sugar will of gone up alot
I am sure someone will be along shortly and give more info!
I am still new to all of this!
Sandy
 
JanShelley said:
Hi,
can I ask - what's a liver dump and how do you recognise it please?
Best wishes, Jan
Click to expand...


Hi Jan.
Liver dump, dawn phenomenon and dawn effect are all common terms that describe the same condition. It is an abnormally high early-morning fasting increase in blood glucose. It usually occurs between 4:00 AM and 11:00 AM. It occurs in everyone's body, but it has more impact on diabetics than normal bodies. Understanding the phenomenon can go a long way towards helping diabetics manage it. Here it is again for your information.

DAWN PHENOMENON
Everyone, diabetic or not, exhibits some Dawn Phenomenon. It is a natural part of our bodies' circadian rhythms. Some have said it is the way our ancestors had the strength to rise and slay a wooly behemoth for breakfast.

Since most of us fast while sleeping, with teenagers a possible exception, our bodies use stored energy during sleep. The body uses all three macro-nutrients (carbohydrates, proteins, and fats) to store energy.

The most easily used is the storage medium of carbohydrates, called glycogen. Glycogen is made from glucose, and is stored in the liver and muscles. Since it is basically nothing more than a complex matrix of glucose, it is easy for the body to store and use, something the body does all day long. The technical term for the act of creating and storing glycogen is glycogenesis. When the body calls for the conversion of glycogen back to glucose it is called glycogenolysis.

Another macro-nutrient that is available to be converted to glucose is protein. Most of us think of our protein as being stored in muscle, but the body has protective mechanisms to make muscle wasting its last choice. One of the most useful and readily available sources of protein storage is in blood components, i.e., albumin (plasma). The body uses a process performed in the liver to convert amino acids, the building blocks of proteins, into glucose. The name for this process is gluconeogenesis, literally "the creation of new glucose".

So, what does all this have to do with a high fasting BG? Overnight, usually between 4am and 11am, your body releases some hormones. These are Growth Hormone (GH) from the anterior pituitary gland, cortisol from the adrenal cortex, glucagon from your pancreatic alpha-cells, and epinephrine (adrenalin). These hormones cause an increase in insulin resistance, raising your BG. In addition, these hormones trigger glycogenolysis and gluconeogenesis, adding stored or new glucose to your bloodstream.


Ken.
 
Jan, what Ken and Sandy said :D

I think I am going to start eating something as soon as I get up, probably some nuts.

I recognised a liver dump the oher day by testing as soon as I woke up. I don't always feel like eating first thing, and, to be honest, getting my 12-year-old son to school has a higher priority - I have my breakfast ready and take it to work, when I eat it once I have switched onmy computer and made myself a cup of tea.

This week I have been cutting back on carbs and testing much more frequently. I spotted a higher than expected post breakfast reading the other day, which was quite a surprise :? On Friday morning I tested when I woke up and then again just before I ate. My blood sugar had risen by a whole point without me eating anything.

Also, some people say their system is more sluggish or less efficient in the morning and it gets better as the day progresses. I think I might be one of them.

To find out how your blood sugar fluctuates during the day you need to test your blood regularly throughout the day. I have been doing this for a couple of months.
 
Jan.

There is no need to apologise for any questions you ask here. We are trying to help you in the best way we can. So keep asking. We are here.

Ken. :D
 
If you want to find your spikes and adjust your diet to avoid them, you may need to consider doing a test 1 hour after eating. My biggest spikes are 1 hour after eating.

But remember, we are all differnt. Your diabetic body is different to my diabetic body. testing is how we find out what works ofr us as individuals. Keep asking questions!
 
Jan
ask away, that is what this forum is good for!
Trust me some of the questions i have asked! I am amazed that i got answers for! We all have to learn and we all learn at different speeds! There is so much to be learnt about what we do don't eat etc!
This forum is great!
Just ask any question no matter how good or how silly you might think the question is!

Spiral...
I don't always feel like eating straight away when i get up! I have a small bag of macadania nuts i eat a small handfull to get me through until i do feel like eating!
Sandy
 
Regarding liver dumps, I always thought they were the explanation for sky-rocketing blood sugars after a serious hypo - the body's last defence mechanism kicking in? So I suppose dawn phenomenon would be just a milder version of same manifestation but with different trigger. Or have I got it completely wrong again?
 
They should bring you out of hypo too, if there isn't TOO much insulin circulating.
 
hi,
I have also noticed what I think is a liver dump 1st thing in the morning. The last time I eat the previous day is about 5pm, as I try not to eat after that as my bg seems to struggle in the evening. However as I have realized that something funky happens overnight or in the morning that makes my bg go up, tonight I was going to try having my dinner at 5pm as usual, and then at 10pm perhaps have some nuts before bed. has anyone tried this? any ideas on whether it would be best to have the nuts at night just before bed which may make the liver dump not happen in the morning? or is this a known bad idea as it might make you have a high bg level all night?
 
I think the idea of taking a few nuts up for first thing in the morning is a good idea. I will do that for the next few days and see if it makes a difference.

Red, maybe you need to think if a snack during the evening, something like nuts would be good.

I tend to eat between 7-8ish and often don't eat anything else during the evening. Before I dropped the carbs I'd be snacking before I went to bed - toast or something - I was always hungry.

If I need something now it is usually nuts I go for. I like almonds and have a nice blend of mixed nuts (almonds, Brazils, walnuts and hazelnuts) from Julian Graves - they were on special a few weeks ago.

I got a few very small plastic contanienrs from ASDA and put about 30g in them for snacks when I go out. Handy size, so will take one up to bed.
 
hi all.

Red here. Just thought I would feedback re: liver dumps and trying some nuts last night.
Before reading the below figure please note that most of my post 5pm readings were previosly 8-10 and morning 6am -9am ones were 8-11.

I had some almonds at 9.30pm b4 bed (which dont usually eat after 5pm). My bg was 7.7 b4 the nuts, and returned to 7.9 b4 I went to bed.

I woke up at 5.30am and check bg which was 8 also ate a handful of almonds here and then at 9am bg was 8.2 (whereas like someone who posted previously on this thread my bg has gone up either 1 whole mark on even 2!! due to I think a liver dump.)

It is 10am now and the last test was 7.7, yipee I have never 'started' my day b4 breakfast at 7.7 (have started on 8, 9s or 10) so for me having a handful of nuts b4 bed and in the early hrs (5.30am) has made a very positive and significant difference which I hope can be repeated. I feel it will as its seems so significant.

Clearly for me, fingers crossed, is a breakthrough, just wanted to feedback in it helps anyone to hear something positive and to perhaps try it, as it seems weird to be doing this but it actually worked.

thanks
Red

PS let the records show.... that I could eat, unlike what some others expressed re eating 1st thing, a roast dinner or 2 or 3, or any amount anything at any hr of day, night or early morning :D and did, which is why I thing that I personally have got diabetes now. I am trying to make a joke of this becuase this restricting eating is killing me. :lol:
 
red said:
let the records show.... that I could eat, unlike what some others expressed re eating 1st thing, a roast dinner or 2 or 3, or any amount anything at any hr of day, night or early morning :D and did, which is why I thing that I personally have got diabetes now. I am trying to make a joke of this becuase this restricting eating is killing me. :lol:
Click to expand...

Red, you have diabetes either because you inherrited a set of diabetic genes from someone or because you have had an illness that compromised your pancreatic function - a friend of mine was diagnosed with T2 last year after pancreatitis.

The diabetic genes are not a duff set of genes. They are actually quite common in the grand scheme of things the world over because they carry a significant evolutionary advantage.

There is a school of thought that suggests that those of us who have T2 diabetes in the family have a metabolism that enables us to lay down fat efficiently during times of feast. This is very good, because it sustained us through times of famine in the ages when we were involved in hard physical labour for every mouthful we ate. From what I know of evolution and genetics, this makes sense.

The problem now is that we live in a time of permanent feast, as we have an agricultural system that produces large quantities of starchy carbohydrate. Unfortuntly, as most of us rarely have a famine this is laid down as fat and we never never quite get around to burning it off :?

Fluctuating blood glucose leaves us hungry and that is often why we eat. Add to that a "complicated" relationshp with food - which is far more common than peple think - and you have a recipe for diabetes/disaster. This is not something that carries any blame.

People without the diabetic genes may well have insulin resuistance, but they would have to get to a much greater age than those of us to actually develop diabetes in our 40s or younger. Give yourself a break. Guilt about the fact you are on the large side does not do anything positive for your ability to deal with the problem and I beleiv is more likely to lead you to overeating.

On the subject of macadamia nuts - well done! How many grams did you eat to get that result? I did something similar at about 8 this morning when I tested at 4.9 (the first time I have had a fasting reading under 5 without exercise the day before) but managed to sabotage it by falling asleep and not getting breakfast until 11.30 :roll: I was back up to 5.6 before breakfast :roll:
 
to spiral
thankyou for your response.
in answer to have many nuts, as many as I could get in my fat little hands and take up to bed
ha ha ha ha ha.

since my good, well better start today, I seemed to have a disaster. for dinner I had lean pork chop, carrots and parsnips and I had a spike after about 20 mins, to 10.4, then droped to 9.8 and I thought thank god thats its going down, then half hr later it was 10.9, so what is the diabetic antichrist, out of these three foods. I cant help feeling that no matter how hard you try with this its just never good enough, I think it would be easier to give up eating all together than this, then you might get a monumental liver dump and finish you off, ha ha ha.
 
red said:
to spiral
thankyou for your response.
in answer to have many nuts, as many as I could get in my fat little hands and take up to bed
ha ha ha ha ha.

since my good, well better start today, I seemed to have a disaster. for dinner I had lean pork chop, carrots and parsnips and I had a spike after about 20 mins, to 10.4, then droped to 9.8 and I thought thank god thats its going down, then half hr later it was 10.9, so what is the diabetic antichrist, out of these three foods. I cant help feeling that no matter how hard you try with this its just never good enough, I think it would be easier to give up eating all together than this, then you might get a monumental liver dump and finish you off, ha ha ha.
Click to expand...


Red.

You are testing at totally the wrong times here.

You only need to test before a meal, then at 1 and 2 hrs. You may, with some foods test also at the 3 hr point. That is it. Do not test after 20 mins etc, you are just wasting test strips.

Ken
 
I do test before a meal. the reason I was testing a lot is becuase I have never peaked at 1 hour, buts it can be a high number and then I want to see just how high its going and just when it starts coming down. why is it a waste of strips I dontget it. I am quite new to all this stuff, I thought people said test test test? I dont get anything right.
 
Red.

Test at the times stated and you will know what is going on.
If you are testing at 20 min etc intervals that is not what you should be doing. As you say, you are new to all this. This is good advice from someone who has been doing it for twelve years.

Ken.
 
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