low at night-high in morning?!

[heypapatooni]

Struggling with morning blood sugar being high!
I take hypurin porcine twice a day-7am &7pm.
If I take 22 units on an evening (and 6 units of novorapid)
my blood test at about 10pm or 11pm is about 4.3
when I get up on a morning it's sometimes as high as 14!

QUESTION-
If I take MORE insulin will it just make my readings lower at 10/11pm?
OR will it last longer, thus bringing down the 7am reading?
Wokhurst website says it peaks at 6-12 hours in a 24 hour period.
(I'm currently taking 18 units at 7am)
I have tested thru night, and it gradually goes up! I'm sure I'm not going hypo at night.

I have been struggling with what I think is insulin resistance lately, so have cut out
starchy carbs for the last 2 or 3 weeks.
Can anyone help? :?:

 

[janabelle]

Hi, I know someone else who had this prob, she added another insulin at night. Need to find out more, but sounds like this dawn phenomenon thing

Jus

 

[heypapatooni]

Last night I ate a small banana cos I felt low/hungry, i don't make a habit of eating so late as I'm so overweight, it's not a habit I want to start! I can't see that a baby banana could send me up to 14!
I would prefer it being 6 or 7 too! I have tested thru night several times, and it has been 8, 9, 10 ! weird! I just can't seem to get the morning reading down, I tried 24 units a couple of times, but DID go hypo thru night, then that jiggers morning results after you have eaten jelly babies to put yourself right! it's getting frustrating!

 

[heypapatooni]

DAWN PHENONMENON? :?:

 

[janabelle]

Hi again, something I just remembered. I have experienced probs overnight when I've eaten kidney beans with mexican- avoid it like the plague now. Forgot to mention I'm also on Hypurin Porcine Isophane, I also split the dose 22 units 8.30am and 12 units 9-10pm. I stayed on a rapid-acting analogue for a while, but find since I've changed to porcine neutral (short-acting pork), it lasts a bit longer. The result of this is that if I take a 3-4 unit dose with breakfast, I rarely have to jab with lunch-which is fairly low-carb, usually home-made leek or brocolli soup, and a couple of oatcakes. I presume the same happens in the eve, that my Neutral lasts a bit overnight.
I am lucky that I don't have any dawn phenomenon issues, but as I said I know of someone who has, she's also on animal insulins. I will try and get in touch with her and see if she has any ideas for you.
Bananas do push my BG level up a lot, the subject of bananas and BG has come up recently on this forum. If your morning BG being so high is a regular thing then it's probably unlikely to be the fault of the poor wee banana.
Jus

 

[janabelle]

Hi,
I mentioned dawn phenomenon,I've heard of it, but I really have no experience of it, despite nearly 21 years as a type-1. Whenever things have gone pear-shaped BG wise- in my experience there's been a logical reason for it-and usually human error on my part-exept for when I was on Lantus :evil:
Maybe someone else will explain it for both of us.
Jus

 

[heypapatooni]

Sorry if this comes up twice- but lost my reply!
i read about the DP, seems the only way around it would be to get up at 3am and run around the field!
I do eat alot of kidney beans, as i don't eat meat, but I haven't had any this week!
I've had salmon with roasted onions/peppers/mushrooms in garlic & tomato puree for 2 nights
and veggie sausage casserole onions/mushrooms/swede/parsnip for 2 nights, -i know parsnips GI is high, but it kicks in quick, so should't affect so late on. I've also had mandarains/satsumas after meal.
I'm hoping to go on neutral, but I'm waiting for my GP to write to my specialist......

 

[heypapatooni]

I tried taking 24 units last night, but I was 3.6 when I woke to do a test at 3am.
I'm gonna drop the dose down as it's too dodgy being too low, maybe try 18 units.
I take my dogs for a brisk 3/4 hour walk at 7.30 am every day, maybe my body knows this is gonna happen, and stores up the energy for me...... :?:

 

[heypapatooni]

By the way, it was 14 again when I woke, after a few jelly babies for hypo treatment!

 

[cugila]

By the way, it was 14 again when I woke, after a few jelly babies for hypo treatment!

heypapatooni
Been reading this with interest. A few comments/questions from me. Hope you don't mind ?

1.You are definitely too low at bedtime (4.3) hence as you drop lower you will 'liver dump' during the night so elevating your Bg levels.

2.You need to adjust your Insulin doseage and also possibly have a small carby snack before bedtime to ensure the levels are better.

3.Keep the levels higher pre-bed to avoid the hypo's.

4.How many Jelly Babies do you take and do you test 15 minutes later ?

5.Do you test immediately you wake up ?

6.Do you eat virtually straight away.

7.Do you exercise before your breakfast ?

Here is information about the Dawn Phenomenon.
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=7885&hilit=+dawn+phenomenon#p73438

 

[iHs]

Struggling with morning blood sugar being high!
I take hypurin porcine twice a day-7am &7pm.
If I take 22 units on an evening (and 6 units of novorapid)
my blood test at about 10pm or 11pm is about 4.3
when I get up on a morning it's sometimes as high as 14!

QUESTION-
If I take MORE insulin will it just make my readings lower at 10/11pm?
OR will it last longer, thus bringing down the 7am reading?
Wokhurst website says it peaks at 6-12 hours in a 24 hour period.
(I'm currently taking 18 units at 7am)
I have tested thru night, and it gradually goes up! I'm sure I'm not going hypo at night.

I have been struggling with what I think is insulin resistance lately, so have cut out
starchy carbs for the last 2 or 3 weeks.
Can anyone help? :?:

Hi

Not sure if this will work for you but it might do.

Instead of giving yourself the Hypurin at 7pm try leaving it until 4hrs after you have bolused the Novorapid for your evening meal. In other words you use the Novo to deal with your eve meal on its own (not combined with the Hypurin). That way your bg levels hopefully will be on 4.? or above but because the Novo will be coming to the end of its action, the only insulin taking you through the night will be the Hypurin. You might find that you might have to increase the Novo up a notch but this will depend on what yr bg level is before you do the Hypurin. All insulins can be adjusted as well as more or less food can be eaten. Its just finding the right balance for you.

If the above fails, you could try asking your D consultant to consider you for an insulin pump and then the DP will be taken care of. If you dont fancy the idea of a pump, another fast acting insulin to try is Apidra which is fairly fast but of shorter duration than Novorapid.

 

[heypapatooni]

Thanks for the help everybody!
Firstly I'm going to reduce the 7pm dose to maybe, 18 tonight.
I don't really want to have to take my hypurine at a seperarte time, as I'm really forgetful AND when I hopefully get onto nuetral I will be able to mix them, meaning 3 jabs a day instead of 5! That makes a big difference to me!
I test as soon as I wake up.
I eat approx 15 mins after taking my insulin.
I exercise half an hour after taking my insulin.
I eat approx 10 jelly babies! I don't test afterwards (middle of night! what a struggle!)

 

[cugila]

I test as soon as I wake up.
I eat approx 15 mins after taking my insulin.
I exercise half an hour after taking my insulin.

How long is it between testing in the morning, and eating ? That is more important.

I eat approx 10 jelly babies! I don't test afterwards (middle of night! what a struggle!)

10 Jelly Babies...... :shock: OMG ! That, is approx 48g carbs....... :shock:
That is no way to treat a hypo....the recommended method is to eat say 2-3 then test after 15 minutes. If the levels are still low at the 15 minute reading then repeat the process every 15 minutes until more normal levels are achieved. If the reading is near normal then a small carby snack will stabilise the levels.

Frankly, it is no wonder your morning levels are high if that is what you are doing !

 

[heypapatooni]

the hypos have only happened a couple of times!
i'm sorry but in over 30 years of having type 1 nobody has actually advised me on how much to eat to correct a hypo! Infact Doctors advised me years ago to eat chocolate or bananas which are far too slow acting! I was force fed those horrid glucose tablets when younger, so I feel sick at the sight of them!!
I come from the days when there was NO personal blood testing machines! The only tests were urine kits which were test tubes and you had to add 5 drops of urine and 10 drops of water, add a tablet, and time to see if there was sugar! I soon more or less ditched that palalva! turrns out it wasn't acurate anyway!
I DO find that I know MYSELF how I feel, and i wouldn't normally do so many tests, as I become obsessed with getting the readings right! I belive the more I mess around, the worse it gets!!unfortunately i have got overweight and i was resisting my insulin, i'm getting the doses down a bit now, started with a clean slate, cutting out my starchy carbs to try and get kick started!
hypos are the problem when trying to loose weight and re-gain some stability. I do overeat while hypo I guess, in a panic! It's the way I was advised from the start I guess!
DON'T PANIC! DON'T PANIC!! :lol:

 

[iHs]

Ames Clinitest tabs - :lol: The kids would really love watching the tablets fizz up red hot in the test tube and change colour from blue to orange. I was often 2% :lol:

I only eat glucose tabs at a push. Normally I eat 4 fruit pastels to lift me up.

Try eating a bit more carb before going to bed like big nob of cheese on a cracker or some peanut butter to see if that prevents you going low

 

[janabelle]

Hi,
2-3 jelly babies would not be enough to get me out of a hypo. I had one today (hypo not jelly baby) cos i over-shopped while looking for gear for an 80s party. I had 2 chunks of dairy milk, a couple of swigs of lucozade and 2 glucose tablets. I didn't have a huge rise after. However I have noticed that I do have to be more cautious about treating a hypo than I did in my younger days. I remember getting up at 3-4 in the morning while hypo, and wanting to eat and eat and eat, even the kitchen cupboards looked tempting. Now I know that if I hypo in the night 4 gulps of lucozade sort me out.

Heypapatooni, you've found that raising your evening Isophane hasn't solved the problem. How is your control during the day? Any problem areas there? When are you changing to Neutral?
Jus

 

[heypapatooni]

CLINITEST!Corr! you have a good memory! i think I blanked them out a bit from mine! :lol:
I don't want eat before bed, it's something I've never done, and I don't want to start! I'm far too overweight!
I've cut down the porcine to 17 units tonight and 6 novorapid, lets see what happens! I'll try yeah, 4 sounds good! jelly babies if i go hypo, and try not to panic!


Janabelle, yes, shopping is a sure thing to have a hypo attack! My 3 biggest in my life have been after shopping all day! :lol: I've eaten tons before, sat in a shopping centre for over 1/2 hour before I could even stand up! You just don't realise how far you walk! I did 7 miles once on my pedometer, just in one afternoon! I feel the same about lucozade, forced it when i was young, can't touch the stuff! YUK!!
It's very hard to stop eating before you feel any better.....

Jus, I need to call the Dr.'s on Friday to see if he got permission to change my insulin from my specialist, he was going to write to him.....we will see....My daytimes are going pretty good now, my readings are coming down all the time, hopefully i will have to decrease that too!