low carbs v high carbs

[Pollyvent]

My partner has recently been diagnosed with type 2 diabetes He was given a booklet which advocated eating a high carb diet. Strange i thought as years ago diabetics had to limit there carbs as they turn to glucose when hitting the blood stream.
Also he is obese about 5'3" and weighing 13st 1 so i would have thought lower carbs would be better for him I get the impression they do not look at the individual it appears that they think one size fits all roblem:

 

[borofergie]

Welcome Polly,

Looks like your partner got the standard NHS intro. Take the booklet, tear it up, set fire to the pages, stamp on the ashes, and bury them in the garden.

You're exactly right - the only way to beat T2 diabetes is to control his carbohydrate intake. The exact amount of carb he can tolerate will depend on his metabolism (and his beat up endocrine system), so you'll need to get a BG meter (in the likely event that the NHS won't give you one), and start testing 2 hours after he's eaten. If his BG is much higher than 7mmol/l after 2 hours then he'll need to cut out some carbs (or try some different ones).

100g a day is not a bad target to aim at - although if he can eat less than that, he'll probably find himself getting less obese by the week,

It sounds like you're on the right track already!

Good luck

Stephen

 

[Sid Bonkers]

I am yet to see this NHS leaflet that tells diabetics to eat a high carb diet can one of you please show me where I can see one?

 

[borofergie]

Here you go Sid:
http://www.bwd.nhs.uk/general-informati ... 85358=1320
"Food and diabetes a good start".

Some pearls of wisdom from this leaflet:

Eat regular meals. Try to plan your meals around starchy foods such as bread, potatoes, rice, pasta, chapattis etc

The focus is almost completely on sugar (and not carbs), therefore they are happy to recommend:

Cereal such as Branflakes, Weetabix, Shredded Wheat, All Bran, Rice Krispies and Cornflakes

Plain biscuits like Rich Tea, Digestive, Hob Nobs etc.

Currant loaf, tea bread, scones, toasted teacakes

Maybe it should be called: "Food and Diabetes - a recipe for neuropathy, blindess and amputation".

 

[WhitbyJet]

+1 borofergie :lol:

 

[borofergie]

Here is another classic:
http://www.southstaffordshirepct.nhs.uk ... dGuide.pdf

Just Google "NHS diabetes leaflets diet" and you'll find lots of variation on the same theme.

This one suggests reducing the fat in your diet, which for most people, is an implicit instruction to increase your carbohydrate intake.

Include potatoes, rice, pasta, bread or cereals at each meal.

It's incredible isn't it, the first advice we give new diabetics on this forum is to cut out "potatoes, rice, pasta, bread or cereals"

We don't usually think it's necessary to tell diabetics to not to eat cakes. South Staffs NHS disagree:

Eat teacakes, scones or fruit loaf instead of sweet cakes, sweet biscuits and pastries.

Telll you what though, I'm bloody releived that Hobnobs are now a good food for diabetics. I'm going to cane a whole packet at lunchtime.

 

[borofergie]

Heres another one (I'm not even link mining for these I promise, they just come up on every search)
http://www.diabetes-carmarthenshire.com ... eating.pdf

Healthy Eating with Diabetes (or "Toes are overrated anyway")

I kid you not:

S a m p l e M e n u

Breakfast:
Fruit or unsweetened fruit juice
Wholegrain cereal with low fat milk
And /Or
Wholemeal toast with low fat spread
Light Meal:
Wholemeal or granary bread/wholegrain crackers/baked potato
Lean meat/fish/egg or low fat cheese
Plenty of mixed salad/vegetables
Fruit or no added sugar yoghurt
Main Meal:
Lean meat/fish/pulses
Potatoes/rice/pasta
Large serving of vegetables or salad
Sugar free dessert or fruit
Between Meals:
Fruit or plain biscuit (if hungry

Can I stop now Sid? I'm a bit worried that my BG is going to spike just by reading this disgusting nonsense.

 

[Sid Bonkers]

Here you go Sid:
http://www.bwd.nhs.uk/general-informati ... 85358=1320
"Food and diabetes a good start".

Some pearls of wisdom from this leaflet:

Eat regular meals. Try to plan your meals around starchy foods such as bread, potatoes, rice, pasta, chapattis etc

So where does it say to eat a high carb diet then?

I'm not saying I totally agree with the way that pdf file is worded but nowhere does it say eat a high carb diet, I eat carbs with most meals just not as many as I used to.

Plus I'm not sure that is a standard NHS leaflet but probably one written by a particular trust 'Blackburn with Darwin' it may well be similar to some others but it was not my experience to be given anything like this. I was advised about portion control from day one, I wasnt given any exact diet and it wasnt until I did my own research here and elsewhere that I gained the control I have now but at no time was I ever told to eat a high carb diet.

Extremist clap trap IMO

 

[sweetLea]

Omg! Unreal!!!
How are people surviving? :shock:

 

[catherinecherub]

I cannot see anything in the advice for newly diagnosed from this forum that says to cut out potatoes rice, pasta, bread or cereals. Some members might follow this idea but that does not mean that we all do. Where did you read that Borofergie or do you mean that is what you recommend?
Each to his own and you have to find something that is sustainable for you, fits in with your way of life and agrees with your meter. Nobody can tell anyone else what they can and cannot eat, including the NHS, as diabetes control cannot be followed by a blueprint.

I shall refer you to this article again. It is about the best diabetes diet, according to research. Nobody is right or wrong, you have to devise your own plan. I was told on diagnosis about the role of carbohydrates and to find a level suitable for me by testing and cutting them down until I found a suitable levels. My DR. sees me as a NH patient so where did he get his advice? The problem seems to me to be not the dietary advice but the lack of testing facilities for Type2's. If this advice is being handed out minus a meter and educating patients about the use of the meter and what it tells you about the meals you have eaten, there wouldn't be such a problem.


http://www.diabetesdaily.com/edelman/20 ... -research/

 

[Sid Bonkers]

Heres another one (I'm not even link mining for these I promise, they just come up on every search)
http://www.diabetes-carmarthenshire.com ... eating.pdf

Healthy Eating with Diabetes (or "Toes are overrated anyway")

I kid you not:

S a m p l e M e n u

Breakfast:
Fruit or unsweetened fruit juice
Wholegrain cereal with low fat milk
And /Or
Wholemeal toast with low fat spread
Light Meal:
Wholemeal or granary bread/wholegrain crackers/baked potato
Lean meat/fish/egg or low fat cheese
Plenty of mixed salad/vegetables
Fruit or no added sugar yoghurt
Main Meal:
Lean meat/fish/pulses
Potatoes/rice/pasta
Large serving of vegetables or salad
Sugar free dessert or fruit
Between Meals:
Fruit or plain biscuit (if hungry

Can I stop now Sid? I'm a bit worried that my BG is going to spike just by reading this disgusting nonsense.

Disgusting nonsense Stephen? Really, is that the best you can do to argue your point? Apart from the fruit juice and pasta theres nothing there that I have any particular problem with, as I've already stated in my other reply to you I dont necessarily agree with everything the NHS says but my original question to you that you seem to be avoiding was "where does the NHS state that diabetics should eat a HIGH CARB DIET?"

 

[borofergie]

Plus I'm not sure that is a standard NHS leaflet but probably one written by a particular trust 'Blackburn with Darwin' it may well be similar to some others but it was not my experience to be given anything like this. I was advised about portion control from day one, I wasnt given any exact diet and it wasnt until I did my own research here and elsewhere that I gained the control I have now but at no time was I ever told to eat a high carb diet.

Sid, I've just given you three examples of leaflets (from different NHS trusts), all of which recommend a diet consisting principally of high carbohydrate foods. All of them are formatted a bit differently, but all of them contain exactly the same advice, and all of them are official NHS leaflets.

None of them write "eat a high carbohydrate diet" (mainly because most of them don't even address the issue of carbohydrate) but all of them are suggesting a high carbohydrate diet.

Do you honestly think that recommending that Diabetics eat potaoes, rice and bread with every meal is sensible advice? :***:

Extremist clap trap IMO

Who are you calling an extremist?

 

[Sid Bonkers]

Omg! Unreal!!!
How are people surviving? :shock:

By eating a healthy balanced diet and cutting back on the carbs to a limit that suits the individual

It is possible to eat carbs and still be a low carber you know :thumbup:

 

[borofergie]

"where does the NHS state that diabetics should eat a HIGH CARB DIET?"

If you tell people to base every meal around starchy carbohydrates, it is, be definition, a high carbohydrate diet.

If I told you to go a stab somebody in the neck, I don't have to use the word "murder", to be advising you to murder someone.

 

[borofergie]

I cannot see anything in the advice for newly diagnosed from this forum that says to cut out potatoes rice, pasta, bread or cereals.

Here you go Catherine (from Daisy's standard intro post):

Reduce your carbohydrates
A large number of people on this forum have chosen to reduce the amount of carbohydrates they eat as they have found this to be an effective way of improving (lowering) their blood sugar levels.

The carbohydrates which tend to have the most pronounced effect on blood sugar levels tend to be starchy carbohydrates such as rice, pasta, bread, potatoes and similar root vegetables, flour based products (pastry, cakes, biscuits, battered food etc) and certain fruits.

That (sensible) advice is exactly the opposite from what the NHS is suggesting - making sure that you eat starchy carbs and/or bread, potatoes, pasta and rice with every meal

I'm not quite sure why you are disagreeing with me Catherine. I'm a huge advocate of any method that helps diabetics get their BG under control (be it low-carb, medium-carb low-GI, portion-control). A common theme of all those diets is carbohydrate control.

I am merely pointing out (at Sid's request) that these leaflets do not mention carbohydrate control, suggest lots of food which are high in carbohydrate (and high-GI) and in fact contain advice to eat starchy carbs with every meal.

 

[Sid Bonkers]

None of them write "eat a high carbohydrate diet" (mainly because most of them don't even address the issue of carbohydrate) but all of them are suggesting a high carbohydrate diet.

Do you honestly think that recommending that Diabetics eat potaoes, rice and bread with every meal is sensible advice? :***:

I see the recommendation to eat carbs with every meal but not to eat a high carb diet - big difference - As for do I think its a good idea to eat carbs with every meal? Yes I do think it is important to eat a healthy balanced diet that includes carbs as well as fat and protein, so eating carbs with every meal is OK as far as I can see.

As for the :***: smiley I really do find a smiley titled *** quite offensive.

Extremist clap trap IMO

Who are you calling an extremist?

I am calling the statement that the NHS is advising a high carb diet extremist clap trap but your twisting my words to fit your argument as usual, BTW how is Eddies blog these days?

 

[borofergie]

[
As for the :***: smiley I really do find a smiley titled *** quite offensive.

It's a standard smiley from the list on the left -> the one with a big eye. I chose it because it looked like a man with a big eye. You should probably complain to Admin if you find the selection of icons offensive.

I am calling the statement that the NHS is advising a high carb diet extremist clap trap but your twisting my words to fit your argument as usual, BTW how is Eddies blog these days?

Which blog?

 

[borofergie]

Nobody is right or wrong, you have to devise your own plan. I was told on diagnosis about the role of carbohydrates and to find a level suitable for me by testing and cutting them down until I found a suitable levels. My DR. sees me as a NH patient so where did he get his advice? The problem seems to me to be not the dietary advice but the lack of testing facilities for Type2's. If this advice is being handed out minus a meter and educating patients about the use of the meter and what it tells you about the meals you have eaten, there wouldn't be such a problem.

I agree with you completely apart from "nobody is right or wrong". Telling diabetics to eat starchy carbs with every meal is wrong. I don't think that there is anyone in this community that thinks that you can control diabetes without controlling your carbs to some extent. That clearly isn't the message from these leaflets.

I'm glad that, as an educated intelligent woman, you were able to work out a good diet for yourself. This forum is largely a self-selecting group of similarly intelligent people (plus the curious newly diagnosed who are seeking an answer). I don't think that the vast majority of newly diagnosed diabetics have the courage, the knowledge or the resolve to challenge the basic information that they are given.

Sid seems to be able to control his diabetes with (small portions) of starchy carbs with every meal, you seem to be able to control yours with low-GI carbs. It's a long route from "eating starchy carbs with every meal" to finding out either of those diets if you don't have the capacity to do your own research.

 

[catherinecherub]

I cannot see anything in the advice for newly diagnosed from this forum that says to cut out potatoes rice, pasta, bread or cereals.

Here you go Catherine (from Daisy's standard intro post):

Reduce your carbohydrates
A large number of people on this forum have chosen to reduce the amount of carbohydrates they eat as they have found this to be an effective way of improving (lowering) their blood sugar levels.

The carbohydrates which tend to have the most pronounced effect on blood sugar levels tend to be starchy carbohydrates such as rice, pasta, bread, potatoes and similar root vegetables, flour based products (pastry, cakes, biscuits, battered food etc) and certain fruits.

That (sensible) advice is exactly the opposite from what the NHS is suggesting - making sure that you eat starchy carbs and/or bread, potatoes, pasta and rice with every meal

I'm not quite sure why you are disagreeing with me Catherine. I'm a huge advocate of any method that helps diabetics get their BG under control (be it low-carb, medium-carb low-GI, portion-control). A common theme of all those diets is carbohydrate control.

I am merely pointing out (at Sid's request) that these leaflets do not mention carbohydrate control, suggest lots of food which are high in carbohydrate (and high-GI) and in fact contain advice to eat starchy carbs with every meal.

I am not disagreeing with you Stephen just a little confused. You say that the advice on the forum is to cut out starchy carbs when in fact it says to cut down. There is a difference and perhaps this is where the confusion comes in, we interpret things in different ways.

I think most newly diagnosed feel like they have been hit with a sledge hammer when they are informed that have Type2 diabetes. I often wonder if the state of shock that they are in stops them from asking pertinent questions at that first appointment. It probably sinks in later and trying to remember what their GP said is a difficult task. The thought that is in their head is not what the GP told them to eat but the anger and fright that they feel. If they are overweight or obese then the media stereotypes set in as well and they now see themselves as having a self inflicted condition and they wish they could curl up and forget about it.

The key to good control is education and it might be that there are so many people being diagnosed now that the NHS is out of it's depth in trying to deal with the overwhelming costs to services for education for us. I don't know what the answer is but to keep slagging each other and charities off on this forum is not going to make a lot of difference to what is happening out there.

There are topics in the news today about what the cost is to the NHS from missed appointments . millions,and a Newcastle Study funded by DUK that shows that there is a discrepancy in patients being told to use exercise as part of their control. Doctors say that they have given this advice but some patients say that they didn't get it. I wonder if this is because it was given out at the first appointment and the patient was not receptive to everything that was said because of the diagnosis and how they were feeling.

 

[borofergie]

I am not disagreeing with you Stephen just a little confused. You say that the advice on the forum is to cut out starchy carbs when in fact it says to cut down. There is a difference and perhaps this is where the confusion comes in, we interpret things in different ways.

(As usual) I agree with everything that you say Catherine, and you're right, I was careless with my language, I mean't reduce rather than cut out altogether (although my personal preference would be to cut starchy carbs out all together).

I also agree that self-testing is the key, but right now most of the newly diagnosed have access neither to good dietry advice or testing facilities, which is a terrible, terrible, state of affairs.

Nigel said somewhere on one of these thread (in defence of the NHS) that the ratio of good advice to bad advice to the newly diagnosed was 50:50. Even if that's true (which I doubt) isn't it a horrible statistic? Half of all diabetics are getting bad advice? Imagine the national scandal if half of all cancer patitents got bad advice?