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Low LDL and heart disease

Discussion in 'Diabetes Discussions' started by CherryAA, Nov 6, 2018.

  1. CherryAA

    CherryAA Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    As we all know - woe betide anyone who's LDL goes up on an #lchf diet!


    daily we get bombarded with messages about eating polyunsaturated fats because they cause king LDL to go down.

    I thought you might be interested to read this study. Done in 1965

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2166702/?page=3

    is conclusions should have killed the LDL debate stone dead. its a testimony to the profit motive that we re Still being bombarded 50 years later.
     

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  2. Krystyna23040

    Krystyna23040 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    OMG have just read this. Quite shocked actually that this was known in 1965. It made me sad to think about all the people who have had their lives shortened or their quality of life impaired by following the bad advice all these years.
     
  3. CherryAA

    CherryAA Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    That study was extremely clear on the point - DO NOT eat vegetable oils with heart disease. It was clearly under some duress to try to find the benefits , and had they found any it would have been in there.

    There is constant pressure to reduce LDL , all of the vegetable oils are marketed on the basis that they reduce LDL. At the same time there is precious little evidence that reducing LDL does any good for anything, certainly in comparison to getting rid of insulin.
     
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  4. CherryAA

    CherryAA Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Anyone interested in following this through this podcast is worth a listen

    http://peakhuman.libsyn.com/tucker-goodrich-on-vegetable-oils-being-at-the-heart-of-modern-disease

    In particular - these theories

    Only oxidised LDL causes heart disease - what oxidises LDL? - seed oils
    Okinawa Blue Zone - why did it go from the longest life expectance to shortest - " excess Linoleic acid syndrome - ie seed oils

    Origin of the Mediterranan diet - it comes from the Lyon diet heart study by De Lorgeril . he was able to reduce the secondary rate of heart attacks by 70%. The "control diet" was the AHA recommended diet for heart disease - called th e" prudent diet " De Lorgeril lowerd the Om 6 ( seed oils) fats in their diet to 3.6% and raised Omega 3 fats in the diet ( fatty fish, grass fed beef) . The average american eats from 7%-15% omega 6 .

    Statins are sold by a 20-30% risk reduction (compared to 70% by changing the diet) - the AHA changed their recommendation to the Prudent diet - and instead said eat a Mediterranean diet - but it seems that no-one actually recognised why the "mediterranean" diet works - ie reducing Omega 6- the exact same thing as set out in the 1965 Rose Trial above.

    Native LDL doesn't cause heart disease, modified LDL does, what modifies LDL ? Omega 6 seed oils.

    India seed oils in the south lots of heart disese, animal fats in the north less heart disease.

    Meanwhile no -one has been able to find an actual mechanism by which saturated animal fats kill.

    If you want to give rats cancer - give them a carcinogen + an omega 6 ( seed oils ) fat -which then primes them to get cancer ( 4.6% omega 6 ) -

    Why is DNA damage happening in western diseases - mitochondrial disfunction (2004 study in 2004 rats - fed them seed oils - it gave them diabetes. Induce hyperglycaemia in diabetic rats with seed oils and it causes cells to collapse > cancer.

    A particularly interesting one - maybe diabetes can be avoided whilst eating carbs as long as you are not eating seed oils -eg In India .

    Took Indians, did a feeding study - eating sunflower oils, switched to canola or Olive oil ( mostly unsaturated fats) - insulin resistance went down even on a high carb diet along the same spectrum as that shown by the 1965 study - ie started recovering from diabetes .

    Cannot induce non alcoholic fatty liver disase in the absense of Omega 6 oils . ie a study managed to reverse non alcoholic fatty liver disease even on a high carb diet.

    Moral of the story - Do not eat vegetable seed oils. I certainly don't.
     
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  5. hankjam

    hankjam Type 2 (in remission!) · Well-Known Member

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  6. NicoleC1971

    NicoleC1971 Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the useful links everyone!
    I believe that if there were a drug which increased HDL safely then we would not hear so much of the 'evidence' for statins. Note that statins do not reduce absolute risk by 20-30% and the industru muddies the waters by quoting relative risk about miniscule benefits. If they do help anyone then it is probably due to some anti inflamatory effect and not because they reduce ldl (back to the oxidation problem).
    What I find interesting in large scale associational studies is perhaps the thing that seems to be the problem is often a proxy for something else e.g. salt and sat fat taking the blame for processed food (rancid veg oils and processed carbs may actually be the culprits )...Then there is the fascinating thing that we become obsessed with what we can measure e.g. calories /2nd law of thermodynamics and then poor old cholesterol....
     
  7. Guzzler

    Guzzler Type 2 · Master

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    Ivor Cummins spoke to oxidised LDL at Low Carb Houston, it was a fascinating lecture. I am glad I gave up the seed oils, too. I just wish I'd known sooner.
     
  8. Bluetit1802

    Bluetit1802 Type 2 (in remission!) · Guru

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  9. CherryAA

    CherryAA Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    For most of us the level of Om 6 (LA) in our bodies is enormous. That is because as soon as you eat anything processed the proportion of LA compared to any other fat is just huge. The chart show jsut how it has been increasing in humans since we switched to polyunsaturated vegetable fats.

    It takes quite a while to get rid of it, though obviously losing weight helps. Meanwhile it seems to be implicated in practically everything.
    This is an interesting bog that explains why it might even be the thing making us fat - ( no satiety mechanism)
    https://proteinpower.com/drmike/2016/02/03/will-the-new-dietary-guidelines-fatten-us-even-more/

    I love nuts - one of the reasons macadamia are so beloved by guys like Virta health - very low Om 6
     

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  10. T2#Me

    T2#Me · Well-Known Member

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    Does this apply to cold pressed rapeseed oil? I have searched for an answer to this until my eyes crossed, but cannot pin it down (i.e. vegetable oils are bad, ok, but is cold pressed rapeseed oil a vegetable oil in the "bad" camp? Thanks
     
  11. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Master

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    It's a seed oil so probably yes best avoided..olive, avocado etc being fruits not seeds are deemed better but I prefer good old goose fat.
     
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  12. T2#Me

    T2#Me · Well-Known Member

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    Thank you.
     
  13. CherryAA

    CherryAA Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    While we are on the subject - people think that the "med diet" was heart healthy because of Olive Oil. The 1965 study shows its not actually orders of magnitude better than vegetable oils.
    The Lyon heart study that came up with the Med diet was actually focussed on getting rid of Om 6 - it got named Mediterranean because the powers that be were so keen to obfuscate the actual news - dont eat seed oils, The Olive Oil Council loved the news and has been marketing it ever since.
    meanwhile the Mafia is busily cutting in seed oils wherever it can to make " olive oil " more profitable. 70% of the italy's olive oil supply is currently considered to be an undisclosed blend.
    So if you o use olive oil, be very careful about its provenance. I'm sticking to butter ! (lard is quite high N6 too because of the grains fed to pigs .... and chickens) -- it never stops ...
     
  14. first14808

    first14808 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Relative risk is one of the biggest malpractice areas spanning many fields. It's just a very deceptive practice that gets used to exagerate the desired result.

    So take a study of say, 2000 people. 1,000 are on statins, the other 1,000 on a placebo. One person dies in the statin cohort, two in the placebo.

    Actual risks would be 1:1000 vs 1:500, but 'relative risk' means that can be spun as a 50% reduction in mortality! Buy statins! It's a huge con trick that allows statistically insignificant results to be turned into very significant profits.
     
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