Microbiome & Carnivore diet

[Cocosilk]

Has anyone seen any studies done on humans (not rodents) eating a carnivore diet (not seed oils) to show how eating exclusively meat affects our gut flora?

Does the diversity of our microbiomes change when eating only meat and does it even matter?

 

[Winnie53]

I'm curious too as to what is known at this point. Thank you for asking the question.

 

[Member496333]

I don’t believe enough is yet known to draw any meaningful conclusions, and probably never will be in my lifetime. The microbiome is a relatively new area of research, and considering that, thus far, biochemistry science has been unable to collectively agree that sugar is bad for us, I doubt there will be a unanimous decision on gut flora in the next hundred years. Or ever.

That aside, a couple of things; the carnivore diet, in and of its self is not exclusively meat-based. It’s animal based. By name, the diet really just means little or no cellulose (plant matter). It can include organs, fish, eggs, and dairy. The notion of carnivores eating nothing but steak all day is erroneous. I guess the whole thing hinges on whether or not one believes fibre is important. Personally I don’t believe it is, or certainly not as a one-size-fits-all dietary rule. Secondly, if it is true that the microbiome play a key role in determining our sense of mental and physical wellbeing, then I think most ‘carnivores’ will agree that they are doing ok or better without plants. Generally speaking, a diet that makes you feel amazing is unlikely to be doing any harm.

Speaking only for myself, I’m happy that my microbiome is happy. I may be proven wrong in the future, but in the meantime I am thriving without plants and see no cause for concern. Also I long ago decided that when it comes to nutrition, the exact polar opposite of everything we are told, is probably optimal for human health. So far, that approach has reversed my diabetes, resulted in a 0.3 insulin resistance index, and an inflammation level of less than one.

Liver and bacon for breakfast for me today then. My gut microbiome can look after themselves

 

[Cocosilk]

I don’t believe enough is yet known to draw any meaningful conclusions, and probably never will be in my lifetime. The microbiome is a relatively new area of research, and considering that, thus far, biochemistry science has been unable to collectively agree that sugar is bad for us, I doubt there will be a unanimous decision on gut flora in the next hundred years. Or ever.

That aside, a couple of things; the carnivore diet, in and of its self is not exclusively meat-based. It’s animal based. By name, the diet really just means little or no cellulose (plant matter). It can include organs, fish, eggs, and dairy. The notion of carnivores eating nothing but steak all day is erroneous. I guess the whole thing hinges on whether or not one believes fibre is important. Personally I don’t believe it is, or certainly not as a one-size-fits-all dietary rule. Secondly, if it is true that the microbiome play a key role in determining our sense of mental and physical wellbeing, then I think most ‘carnivores’ will agree that they are doing ok or better without plants. Generally speaking, a diet that makes you feel amazing is unlikely to be doing any harm.

Speaking only for myself, I’m happy that my microbiome is happy. I may be proven wrong in the future, but in the meantime I am thriving without plants and see no cause for concern. Also I long ago decided that when it comes to nutrition, the exact polar opposite of everything we are told, is probably optimal for human health. So far, that approach has reversed my diabetes, resulted in a 0.3 insulin resistance index, and an inflammation level of less than one.

Liver and bacon for breakfast for me today then. My gut microbiome can look after themselves

Do you know how one tests or gets a picture of one's microbiome? Maybe it'll be up to some in the carnivore community, or those considering starting out even better, to find out if there is a way to test before and then see how things look after a few months or more of eating sans fibre in the diet.
Or maybe we have to contact people who make programmes like this and see if some carnivores can be on their next show.
https://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/gut-revolution-a-catalyst-special---part-1/11017218

 

[Cocosilk]

There's part 2 https://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/gut-revolution-a-catalyst-special---part-2/11017246

 

[Member496333]

Do you know how one tests or gets a picture of one's microbiome? Maybe it'll be up to some in the carnivore community, or those considering starting out even better, to find out if there is a way to test before and then see how things look after a few months or more of eating sans fibre in the diet.
Or maybe we have to contact people who make programmes like this and see if some carnivores can be on their next show.
https://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/gut-revolution-a-catalyst-special---part-1/11017218

No idea I’m afraid, but much like dietary advice in general, I doubt there’s one particular ‘count’ of microbiome that is optimal for everyone. I believe that so long as the individual is healthy, then there probably isn’t much cause for worry. Anecdotally, the performance of my bowels seems further improved since removing cellulose from my diet, and my general sense of wellbeing is also better. For now I’m happy with that n=1 experiment. Always interested and open to new research though, of course. So long as it’s actual research and not the statistical game of epidemiological Top Trumps that we currently call nutrition science

 

[robhammonduk]

Paul Saladino (MD), the host of “Fundamental Health” podcast (an advocate for “nose to tail” carnivore)- had an excellent discussion with Tommy Wood (MD, PhD) in the latest podcast and echoed much of what was said above- but interestingly as part of the program, they even questioned the correctness of associating diverse gut flora with health, and specifically pointing out major exceptions to this “rule”.
Highly recommended.

 

[Cocosilk]

Although after reading this I probably wouldn't waste my money on a home testing kit for now... https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.te...sts-are-wary-of-at-home-microbiome-tests/amp/

 

[Brunneria]

My understanding of the gut biome is that strains of bugs thrive if fed, and die off if they are not fed.

So by switching to carnivore, the strains that will flourish will be the ones that thrive on the foods I carnivorous foods.
Sure, the others will die off, but do I need the ones that eat fibre and veg and carbs and sugars, and so on? If I'm not eating those, then I don't need the bugs to break them down, and they were redundant anyway and will have simply starved.

The only strains that I want and need are the ones that benefit me - but that in itself is a vast subject, and one I am not able to discuss it with any knowledge.

This wiki article just skims the surface https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gut_flora

They (the bugs) serve a lot of different purposes, and I simply don't have any evidence that eating carnivore long term will be good or bad except for a few key pointers:
- the PaleoMedicina people report that strict keto carnivore improves/reduces gut permeability (and therefore autoimmune conditions), although it may take up to 3 years to do so.
- my own guts are happier on carnivore than on any other way of eating I have tried. I feel no need to inflict the details on you but trust me, things are MUCH more comfortable.
- I take the view that a healthyish gut can cope with fibre, and fibre was part of a prehistoric man's evolutionary diet, but that would have been in the form of seasonal foods (which are self limiting), and often labour intensive to gather (which also limits their intake).
- an unhealthy gut often struggles with fibre, and does better without. Certainly this is the case for me.

I have now been carnivore for over 18 months (due to the repercussions of a particularly severe case of gut rot).
Attempts to reintroduce veg and fibre have been unpleasant. No, they have been VERY unpleasant.

I am happy continuing as I am, with (presumably) a less varied gut biome, because I feel well on it.

 

[Cocosilk]

My understanding of the gut biome is that strains of bugs thrive if fed, and die off if they are not fed.

So by switching to carnivore, the strains that will flourish will be the ones that thrive on the foods I carnivorous foods.
Sure, the others will die off, but do I need the ones that eat fibre and veg and carbs and sugars, and so on? If I'm not eating those, then I don't need the bugs to break them down, and they were redundant anyway and will have simply starved.

The only strains that I want and need are the ones that benefit me - but that in itself is a vast subject, and one I am not able to discuss it with any knowledge.

This wiki article just skims the surface https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gut_flora

They (the bugs) serve a lot of different purposes, and I simply don't have any evidence that eating carnivore long term will be good or bad except for a few key pointers:
- the PaleoMedicina people report that strict keto carnivore improves/reduces gut permeability (and therefore autoimmune conditions), although it may take up to 3 years to do so.
- my own guts are happier on carnivore than on any other way of eating I have tried. I feel no need to inflict the details on you but trust me, things are MUCH more comfortable.
- I take the view that a healthyish gut can cope with fibre, and fibre was part of a prehistoric man's evolutionary diet, but that would have been in the form of seasonal foods (which are self limiting), and often labour intensive to gather (which also limits their intake).
- an unhealthy gut often struggles with fibre, and does better without. Certainly this is the case for me.

I have now been carnivore for over 18 months (due to the repercussions of a particularly severe case of gut rot).
Attempts to reintroduce veg and fibre have been unpleasant. No, they have been VERY unpleasant.

I am happy continuing as I am, with (presumably) a less varied gut biome, because I feel well on it.

Do you think your reaction to fibre after having eaten carnivore is more obvious now if more of those particular gut bugs have died off? I mean, as you said, you only need the bugs for the foods you plan to eat from now on anyway. I guess people in the general population run into trouble because they don't have the gut bugs they need for whatever they are eating but continue to eat that way not knowing what the triggers are. In a way, it sounds like a blessing for many who end up with a health problem that leads them to change their diets and in doing so get relief from other health problems they weren't specifically trying to address.

 

[lucylocket61]

By name, the diet really just means little or no cellulose (plant matter). It can include organs, fish, eggs, and dairy.

Thanks for this. I had somehow completely missed that it includes all these things, and was thinking of cavemen and red meat.

 

[Member496333]

Thanks for this. I had somehow completely missed that it includes all these things, and was thinking of cavemen and red meat.

Understandable. The carnivore diet is a bit of a misnomer. I like to define it as any part of any animal or anything that came from an animal.

 

[Winnie53]

I'm hesitant regarding the carnivore diet. While I think it's very helpful for those who are battling autoimmune and unhealthy gut issues, I'm going to hold off until we begin to see some science.

For now I'm going in the other direction. I'm trying to figure out how to improve the health of my microbiome.

Am currently in the middle of a mild IBD flare. Not happy about this, but hoping I can resolve it with a 2 to 3 day water fast, when I can find the time needed to do it.

I've been eating organic and non-GMO for two or three years now to avoid glyphosate, but recently learned that most wine has glyphosate in it now, so am giving that up now too. For those with "leaky gut", glyphosate is one of the players.

 

[Winnie53]

Here's one more reason for hesitation, for me. Toxins are partitioned off in the body's fat cells and fatty tissue. When we lose weight, POPs are released. The way we prevent them from being reabsorbed is by consuming plant fiber to bind with the POPs and move them out of the colon. To do that however, you do need to have frequent bowel movements too, so it's a multi-step process. There's evidence that heavy metal and toxin load (POPs) plays a role in some of us with type 2 diabetes. So for me, I think I'd want to go through a professionally guided detox, which can take months or years in some cases, before trying the carnivore diet.

But then again, for those who are constipated, the carnivore diet may play a healthy role by moving POPs out of the body quickly. But again, I'm waiting for more science.

For anyone wishing to learn more about this, Joseph Pizzorno, ND's work is where I learned about heavy metals and toxin role in type 2 diabetes. He can be found on YouTube.com and elsewhere.

 

[Cocosilk]

@Jim Lahey I was just going to ask if you still eat eggs, how many a day do you think is okay to eat?
I typically have 3 in the morning but a 4th might feature in an almond keto pancake. I've heard of people eating 6 - 12 eggs in a day. I already have (at last check a few years ago) slightly high LDL cholesterol but quite high HDL which gives me a ratio of around 2.4, which is good. And I keep hearing dietary cholesterol doesn't affect blood cholesterol anyway, so do we have to limit eggs in anyway other than not overeating?

 

[Member496333]

@Jim Lahey I was just going to ask if you still eat eggs, how many a day do you think is okay to eat?
I typically have 3 in the morning but a 4th might feature in an almond keto pancake. I've heard of people eating 6 - 12 eggs in a day. I already have (at last check a few years ago) slightly high LDL cholesterol but quite high HDL which gives me a ratio of around 2.4, which is good. And I keep hearing dietary cholesterol doesn't affect blood cholesterol anyway, so do we have to limit eggs in anyway other than not overeating?

Minimum of four on most days. Sometimes eight. I mostly use duck eggs now because the yolks are richer.

I have no comment regarding cholesterol levels, because quite honestly I’m not interested in my numbers. My body makes what it needs, and just makes a bit less if I eat more. With an inflammation level (hs-CRP) of 0.97mg/L I’m confident that my arteries aren’t clogging up with cholesterol attempting to repair damage. There’s heaps of knowledgeable folk on here that know all about cholesterol breakdowns, so perhaps they will pass comment. @bulkbiker immediately springs to mind.

 

[bulkbiker]

@Jim Lahey I was just going to ask if you still eat eggs, how many a day do you think is okay to eat?
I typically have 3 in the morning but a 4th might feature in an almond keto pancake. I've heard of people eating 6 - 12 eggs in a day. I already have (at last check a few years ago) slightly high LDL cholesterol but quite high HDL which gives me a ratio of around 2.4, which is good. And I keep hearing dietary cholesterol doesn't affect blood cholesterol anyway, so do we have to limit eggs in anyway other than not overeating?

Here's a little thread we have compiled about the big C without which we'd be dead of course..

https://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/cholesterol-and-statins.156985/

As @Jim Lahey says dietary cholesterol doesn't have a significant impact on your blood cholesterol levels although dietary changes (cutting out carbs) can have a significant impact on your ratios.. which are the bits we should look at..

 

[Brunneria]

@Jim Lahey I was just going to ask if you still eat eggs, how many a day do you think is okay to eat?
I typically have 3 in the morning but a 4th might feature in an almond keto pancake. I've heard of people eating 6 - 12 eggs in a day. I already have (at last check a few years ago) slightly high LDL cholesterol but quite high HDL which gives me a ratio of around 2.4, which is good. And I keep hearing dietary cholesterol doesn't affect blood cholesterol anyway, so do we have to limit eggs in anyway other than not overeating?

@Cocosilk i wouldn’t suggest that you gauge portion sizes by what anyone else is eating. We vary so much in size, muscle mass, activity levels, and how are bodies handle food, that comparisons are pretty irrelevant.

As @Jim Lahey says, he can eat 8 duck eggs a day.
For me, 3 hens eggs would be eggy overload...

 

[Cocosilk]

@Cocosilk i wouldn’t suggest that you gauge portion sizes by what anyone else is eating. We vary so much in size, muscle mass, activity levels, and how are bodies handle food, that comparisons are pretty irrelevant.

As @Jim Lahey says, he can eat 8 duck eggs a day.
For me, 3 hens eggs would be eggy overload...

Don't worry, I know men can generally eat larger portions than women. And I wasn't about to start eating 8 duck eggs a day... :***:We used to have ducks and I found their eggs too rich for my palate.
I think I'm similar to you where 3 eggs feels good and seems like the limit, but I'm sure I've had 5 eggs on the odd day if I've baked something with eggs in it, but I can't work out if I feel bad about that because of what we've always been told about eggs or whether my body is saying 'thanks but enough now'.

 

[Winnie53]

It's interesting. In the last year or so, something changed. For breakfast I began eating 2 instead of 1 egg with my bacon and vegetables. After a while I didn't want the bacon anymore and now I skip breakfast 3 to 5 days a week. Not sure why. After 4 years my body's needs continue to change.