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Morning High's of 8ish

dwelldon

Well-Known Member
Messages
190
Type of diabetes
Other
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
I have been getting regular morning highs of around 8 since the beginning of December. Although my daytime figures are normally withing the usual range.

My diet is good, I don't eat too many carbs etc but no matter what I try the figures on a morning stay the same.

Being an ultra slim 10st 5lb doesn't help either as all the advice I can seem to find relates to people who are of a larger build.

I have tried stopping eating at 7pm and not eating until breakfast around 8am so giving me a fasting window of 12 plus hours has no affect. I have tried eating something around 10pm and that seems to have no affect.

I am really running out of ideas and I really don't want to go on to medication again if I can help it.

Any advice appreciated....

Darren
 
What did you eat when you were eating something around 10pm?
You might be getting 'Dawn Phenomenon' where your liver dumps stored glucose into your bloodstream as you wake to get you going. Some people on here have found that eating a small protein snack like a bit of cheese or a few nuts before they go to bed can block the DP.
 
I was just simply eating a small snack, such as nuts or piece of chicken for example
 
My morning fasting value was 8.2 and for me thats not too bad not what I want but it's better than a 15 also i was under 12 the whole day when I tested.... So if I work abit harder I should get to my range of 4 to 7.
 
I have very healthy scores during the day (usually between 5.0 and 6.0), but my morning scores are usually between 8.0 and 10.0 (sometimes a bit higher). I am not eating heavy meals before bed, nor getting up and eating jelly babies at night. I will try some protein before bed to see if it helps.
 
I suffer badly from a kind of "late dawn " phenomena. i.e. my fasting levels are now usually between 3.9% and abut 5.9% averaging a 5.2%, but when I rise it goes up,into the 6's and sometime up to 8/9 before I've eaten anything. (I have a freestyle monitor)

I've tried all sorts to get it to go down in the morning. Fasting before, eating early, eating late, eating higher late carbs, eating no late carbs,eating cheese, eating nuts, drinking whisky , walking within ten minute of eating, walking within 45 minutes of eating, having a bite to eat immediately on rising and I have got used to the fact that there will be a spike and for an hour or two and my numbers will be quite bad.

My morning 6 hours is the highest
( e.g. my current 7 day averages
12-6.00 am 5.2 %,
6 to 12.00 6.9%, (high 8.4%)
12-18.00 6.0%
18-24.00 5.5%
overall 5.9%. ) . Being 1.5% - 2% higher on average during this period has been consistent ever since I began even with much higher numbers overall.

There are three things about DP I am fairly clear on now
1) when I am in ketosis, ALL of my readings drop, so that even with the DP phenomenon the worst actual figures stay reasonably acceptable ( i.e high 6's).

2) the lower the number I go to bed at, the lower the starting point for the morning rise, with the rise being about the same magnitude.

3) I also know that if have an early low carb (5g) breakfast, it causes the DP high to be more short lived ( i..e 1-2 hours instead of 3-4 hours) .

My Hba1C has been dropping very quickly ( 90, 64, 44 in 5 months) through my LCHF diet and exercise, I am assuming that at some point , when I have reached the theoretical " true" low for my body the rest of the time ( and 5.2% must be reasonably close now) - THEN I might find that this dawn phenomena gradually goes away, if not then maybe I will have to simply assume its not fixable.

It may be that if your numbers are low enough the rest of the time, you could invest in a monitor and figure out how much time you have the higher numbers for and if you are getting close to a theoretical "best case" the rest of the time

I have read research that shows a truly NORMAL blood sugar profile would be that your readings are under 6.6% for 91% (me 82%) of the time, and under 7.8% for 99% (me 90%) of the time, with the balance being up to 1% me 9%) over 7.8% up to 11% maximum. ( I have not gone above 11% on LCHF recently)

My current strategy has been to walk a lot after eating. I have noticed though that my blood sugar consistently falls when I then sit down after the exercise. So that led me to try a different experiment today.

This seems to have had an effect - though I don't know yet if it's repeatable , or indeed how I can use it yet! . Not really an option other than at the weekend though

This morning I woke up with normal overnight average around 5.2% , but by the time I had got ready for breakfast (low carb 5g 300 calories at 7.00 am ) it was already 7.4% , Instead of doing anything after breakfast, I just went back to bed, 90 minutes later my blood sugars had gone DOWN to 6.3.% with NO spike at all in the intervening period, instead of going up .

I thought I had it cracked ! ( assuming a lot of free time).

Unfortunately I then had to get up to answer the door and without food my blood sugars promptly went back to 9.4% again - i.e I had definitely interrupted the rise with food and rest , and when I started to move my body went right back to its normal DP rise , when I laid down again the second time with no more food it was back to the 5.2% within an hour. Once it had I hit that "normal" point I got up and it stayed constant.

The lying down and snoozing is the thing that made the difference and my increased blood sugar readings after my low carb breakfast had the same zero effect on my blood sugars as they do the rest of the time.

This leads me to think that actually my body is possibly no more responsive to food in the morning than it is at any other time. What may be different is that the process of actually getting going in the morning is the thing that causes the stress . I personally do not sleep at all well at night, so maybe that is the driver behind my DP stress .

Next time I have a few hours to spare I will try it again and this time see if just staying in bed for the morning after a lazy Sunday breakfast stops the morning rise altogether , or whether the food is just an interruption on an otherwise inexorable morning rise which will happen when I do get up no matter what time that happens to be,

Apologies for the long post, but your post came at the point I am trying to rationalise this in my own head. I hope something in here might give you some ideas.
 
Last edited:
My morning fasting value was 8.2 and for me thats not too bad not what I want but it's better than a 15 also i was under 12 the whole day when I tested.... So if I work abit harder I should get to my range of 4 to 7.

What is now clear to me , is just how cumulative the process is, so for example one good day - where good day is defined as a day when you followed whatever diet you chose and did a a bit of exercise, is likely to lead to a very small average dip in your daily averages of maybe 0.1% or so. For everyday you keep that up, you gain a little bit as your overnight averages improve and your food intake highs start from a tiny bit lower base.

The key to it seems to be consistency - i.e. keeping it up day on day so that overtime it accumulates to the range you want. its not really question of having to do more - if your numbers are already going down, instead its do it longer an you will get there in the end..

Using the freestyle that process is very clear ( if you look at my post analysing xmas - you can see how the process works in reverse when you slacken off )
 
I have very healthy scores during the day (usually between 5.0 and 6.0), but my morning scores are usually between 8.0 and 10.0 (sometimes a bit higher). I am not eating heavy meals before bed, nor getting up and eating jelly babies at night. I will try some protein before bed to see if it helps.

Until I got the freestyle I would have made the same comment as you - now I know that my fasting scores are also the same between 5 an 6, but there is a rapid rise at some point each morning through Dawn Phenonema which seems to be fairly impervious to what I eat.
 
Exercise for me is a killer, if I have basal in my system, I can easily drop from 30 to 10. I would have been Superman if I was healthy
 
Why do type 2's struggle so much? You still produce insulin, just eat a low carb diet and EXERCISE sounds easy to me....I'm type 1 unfortunately
 
Why do type 2's struggle so much? You still produce insulin, just eat a low carb diet and EXERCISE sounds easy to me....I'm type 1 unfortunately
The thing is I DO excercise loads, go to the gym, box and cycle. Eat very low carbs so that is why I am puzzled about morning highs
 
I suffer badly from a kind of "late dawn " phenomena. i.e. my fasting levels are now usually between 3.9% and abut 5.9% averaging a 5.2%, but when I rise it goes up,into the 6's and sometime up to 8/9 before I've eaten anything. (I have a freestyle monitor)

I've tried all sorts to get it to go down in the morning. Fasting before, eating early, eating late, eating higher late carbs, eating no late carbs,eating cheese, eating nuts, drinking whisky , walking within ten minute of eating, walking within 45 minutes of eating, having a bite to eat immediately on rising and I have got used to the fact that there will be a spike and for an hour or two and my numbers will be quite bad.

My morning 6 hours is the highest
( e.g. my current 7 day averages
12-6.00 am 5.2 %,
6 to 12.00 6.9%, (high 8.4%)
12-18.00 6.0%
18-24.00 5.5%
overall 5.9%. ) . Being 1.5% - 2% higher on average during this period has been consistent ever since I began even with much higher numbers overall.

There are three things about DP I am fairly clear on now
1) when I am in ketosis, ALL of my readings drop, so that even with the DP phenomenon the worst actual figures stay reasonably acceptable ( i.e high 6's).

2) the lower the number I go to bed at, the lower the starting point for the morning rise, with the rise being about the same magnitude.

3) I also know that if have an early low carb (5g) breakfast, it causes the DP high to be more short lived ( i..e 1-2 hours instead of 3-4 hours) .

My Hba1C has been dropping very quickly ( 90, 64, 44 in 5 months) through my HCLF diet and exercise, I am assuming that at some point , when I have reached the theoretical " true" low for my body the rest of the time ( and 5.2% must be reasonably close now) - THEN I might find that this dawn phenomena gradually goes away, if not then maybe I will have to simply assume its not fixable.

It may be that if your numbers are low enough the rest of the time, you could invest in a monitor and figure out how much time you have the higher numbers for and if you are getting close to a theoretical "best case" the rest of the time

I have read research that shows a truly NORMAL blood sugar profile would be that your readings are under 6.6% for 91% (me 82%) of the time, and under 7.8% for 99% (me 90%) of the time, with the balance being up to 1% me 9%) over 7.8% up to 11% maximum. ( I have not gone above 11% on LCHF recently)

My current strategy has been to walk a lot after eating. I have noticed though that my blood sugar consistently falls when I then sit down after the exercise. So that led me to try a different experiment today.

This seems to have had an effect - though I don't know yet if it's repeatable , or indeed how I can use it yet! . Not really an option other than at the weekend though

This morning I woke up with normal overnight average around 5.2% , but by the time I had got ready for breakfast (low carb 5g 300 calories at 7.00 am ) it was already 7.4% , Instead of doing anything after breakfast, I just went back to bed, 90 minutes later my blood sugars had gone DOWN to 6.3.% with NO spike at all in the intervening period, instead of going up .

I thought I had it cracked ! ( assuming a lot of free time).

Unfortunately I then had to get up to answer the door and without food my blood sugars promptly went back to 9.4% again - i.e I had definitely interrupted the rise with food and rest , and when I started to move my body went right back to its normal DP rise , when I laid down again the second time with no more food it was back to the 5.2% within an hour. Once it had I hit that "normal" point I got up and it stayed constant.

The lying down and snoozing is the thing that made the difference and my increased blood sugar readings after my low carb breakfast had the same zero effect on my blood sugars as they do the rest of the time.

This leads me to think that actually my body is possibly no more responsive to food in the morning than it is at any other time. What may be different is that the process of actually getting going in the morning is the thing that causes the stress . I personally do not sleep at all well at night, so maybe that is the driver behind my DP stress .

Next time I have a few hours to spare I will try it again and this time see if just staying in bed for the morning after a lazy Sunday breakfast stops the morning rise altogether , or whether the food is just an interruption on an otherwise inexorable morning rise which will happen when I do get up no matter what time that happens to be,

Apologies for the long post, but your post came at the point I am trying to rationalise this in my own head. I hope something in here might give you some ideas.
Many thanks for this reply. Given me some good for thought.
 
that's my nightmare, seeing me get up at 1am and eating jelly babies, oh no
 
Why do type 2's struggle so much? You still produce insulin, just eat a low carb diet and EXERCISE sounds easy to me....I'm type 1 unfortunately

I agree that for me personally getting y blood sugars down so far has been " easy" as long as I stick rigidly to my goals. If you suffer from dawn phenomenon, there is something else going on as well as the food and exercise.

I would be very interested to know if there are any type 2 diabetics out there who have an Hba1C under 5.3% and also USED to suffer from dawn phenomenon but no longer have it . If you do fall into that category, then it would be very helpful to know if you consider yourself to still be technically overweight or not and at point in your improving Hba1C figures did you start to lose the DP.

My current theory is that whilst ever my Hba1C could get better because my system is operating with more sugar than it needs to , then I will continue to suffer from the dawn phenomenon, though maybe the extent of it on a daily basis will come down very slowly. However if I get to the point that all the other periods during the day have stabilised as low as they can possibly get, then the only place left to be creating/ storing the excess sugar will be whatever is causing the dawn phenomenon and if that finally drains away then so will the dawn phenomenon - the above profiles would help confirm if that suspicion has any basis.
 
I have just posted this on another thread but will repeat it here because it is similar to @CherryAA .

I don't get DP over night at all. I go to bed mid to low 5's and get up the same. I hardly ever vary more than plus or minus 0.2mmol/l. I don't get up until at least 8-30 to 9am. Once I'm up and about I start to rise to the low to mid 6s until maybe an hour before lunch when I drop back to the low to mid 5s. This happens with or without a zero carb breakfast (except for a dash of milk in my tea) When I was having yogurt and berries for breakfast it was even worse - 7s. so I no longer eat carbs at breakfast. It also climbs further if I do any strenuous housework.

Example this morning, according to my Libre
Straight out of bed - 5.3
then steady rise with no food, just tea (dash of milk)
6.2
6.1
6.4
6.7
6.9 (doing housework)
6.9
6.8
6.4
6.2
6.2
6.0
5.7 and drops from that.

My BMI is 21, I have had non-diabetic levels since about June 2014, current A1c is 41 (5.9%). I am low carb.
 
I have just posted this on another thread but will repeat it here because it is similar to @CherryAA .

I don't get DP over night at all. I go to bed mid to low 5's and get up the same. I hardly ever vary more than plus or minus 0.2mmol/l. I don't get up until at least 8-30 to 9am. Once I'm up and about I start to rise to the low to mid 6s until maybe an hour before lunch when I drop back to the low to mid 5s. This happens with or without a zero carb breakfast (except for a dash of milk in my tea) When I was having yogurt and berries for breakfast it was even worse - 7s. so I no longer eat carbs at breakfast. It also climbs further if I do any strenuous housework.

Example this morning, according to my Libre
Straight out of bed - 5.3
then steady rise with no food, just tea (dash of milk)
6.2
6.1
6.4
6.7
6.9 (doing housework)
6.9
6.8
6.4
6.2
6.2
6.0
5.7 and drops from that.

My BMI is 21, I have had non-diabetic levels since about June 2014, current A1c is 41 (5.9%). I am low carb.

Thankyou Bluetit. your dawn phenomenon (or whatever we shouldcall it where it starts quite late!) now seems well under control. can you recall if it was much worse when you started? I notice that your BMI has dropped from 31 to 21. My own current BMI is still 33 so I have a long way to go yet.
 
Why do type 2's struggle so much? You still produce insulin, just eat a low carb diet and EXERCISE sounds easy to me....I'm type 1 unfortunately
Yes we still produce insulin but our bodies are not using it properly. In addition our livers are not functioning correctly with the signalling that is needed. For many, our first phase insulin response is weak or missing. I actually think type 1 is much more straight forward. I fully realize that the balancing act that a type 1 lives with day in and day out is a huge thing to live with. I am not saying it is easy. Consider that with a type 2 when sugars go out of whack and they do even with a low carb diet and exercise, we can't bolus or correct for that. Think about how someone with LADA in the honeymoon phase struggles for control because they have no idea how much insulin they are making at any given moment. I really don't think any one type of diabetes, and there are more than two types, is harder or easier than any other. They all have their own challenges and each individual has to deal with their own issues. To lump all type 2's into the just eat right and exercise mindset that has never worked is counterproductive and a bit insulting.
 
DP is a real pain in the a**e. I find the quickest way to get BG's down from DP is to actually generate a controlled insulin response to "get things moving". So when its a problem I'll have a few berries in some full fat Greek yogurt and let the sugar in the fruit do its stuff. Around 5g of carbs in the fruit is all I find it takes. If its really bad a brisk 10 minute walk will also help.
 
Thankyou Bluetit. your dawn phenomenon (or whatever we shouldcall it where it starts quite late!) now seems well under control. can you recall if it was much worse when you started? I notice that your BMI has dropped from 31 to 21. My own current BMI is still 33 so I have a long way to go yet.

My "all morning" averages have always been in the 6s, around 1mmol/l higher than my fasting level. (My FBG has always been good - never had a problem with these normally) so, no, it has never been any worse than it is now and thus it has never improved either. I have to accept this is me and how my liver behaves. I have tried a few things, changed my breakfasts from 8-10g carbs to zero carbs and currently skipping breakfast. No significant difference whatsoever. Exercise makes it worse.
 
Why do type 2's struggle so much? You still produce insulin, just eat a low carb diet and EXERCISE sounds easy to me....I'm type 1 unfortunately

Mate I have a Type 1 son (T1 since a teenager diabetic for over 15 years) who also suffers badly from DP and insulin resistance but would never say he's "unfortunate". He just gets on with his life as do I a Type 2 non overweight low carber who also suffers from bad DP. We are all different and stereo-typing Type 2's as fat and lazy by highlighting EXERCISE does no one any favours.
 
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