My brain might be hungry

[Antje77]

I’m so glad you did the maths there. I was thinking to myself as I started your post how on earth would I work that out. It does make sense though. When you consider that we actually need to ingest zero carbs it stands to reason that’s because the liver makes enough to feed the brain plus a little extra.

So the brain is the cannibal zombie eating the liver (‘s glucose) and anything else we stuff in our mouths needs the insulin (bolus or endogenous) to cover the intake, accounting for any IR we have. Pretty much the way I‘ve always thought of it but from a very different angle Lol. Good to test my understanding i guess. Apologies @catinahat for bringing the horror movie characters back into the discussion.

That was a fun bit of brain exercise, my zombie brain absolutely lives on this kind of pretty useless stuff (plus a little glucose)!

 

[ajbod]

What i meant was that rather than needing more glucose we actually got more insulin, because the glucose was not getting through. (the very nature of hyperinsuliemia, keeping pumping out more and more until it manages to overcome the resistance) Leaving far too much in the blood stream.

 

[MrsA2]

And speaking as a highly intelligent individual with a super sized brain, I'm sure my brain would need more than most !
Not that I'm boasting of course...

 

[ajbod]

I think mine needs more sugar because with no insulation on top it needs to generate some heat to keep warm

 

[Jaylee]

which suggests for those eating much lower than 150 that the liver is producing quite a lot to make up the difference and make enough to get stuck. Anyone know how much livers kick out?

Hi,

For me. I know 10g of carbs can raise my baseline by 3mmol? I’ve worked out for me with “foot on the floor.” I’m more likely to get a liver dump scrambling round during my morning routine prior to work? So, for me. No more (at an estimate.) than 20g..

 

[SaskiaKC]

Might it be because we are in caveperson mode? Which drives us to catch some food or run like **** rather than use much of our thought processes at the start of the day? Of course, we still need to think even then, but brain/body interface probably prefers us to be more physical.

If we were in caveperson mode wouldn't we be just as driven to gather some food as to catch it? We'd need to be vigilant while gathering, which might include running like **** ... but if our cave was near some berry-bearing bushes or nut-bearing trees, we might not have to run like **** very far (in nut and berry season at any rate).

 

[Antje77]

Hi,

For me. I know 10g of carbs can raise my baseline by 3mmol? I’ve worked out for me with “foot on the floor.” I’m more likely to get a liver dump scrambling round during my morning routine prior to work? So, for me. No more (at an estimate.) than 20g..

Except for what your basal is doing, that's mopping up glucose you've produced yourself to my thinking.

 

[Jaylee]

Except for what your basal is doing, that's mopping up glucose you've produced yourself to my thinking.

It’s a good point made. Lantus can be fickle. (IME.) there’s certainly by my reasoning using meters & sensor 20g too much “help.”

 

[Outlier]

. but if our cave was near some berry-bearing bushes or nut-bearing trees, we might not have to run like **** very far (in nut and berry season at any rate).

Absolutely agree, but don't forget that nuts and berries (ask Yogi bear) are only around at certain times of year as you have said, whereas fish and meat is always about. Depends a lot on when and where we evolved, I suppose. And on the neighbours, who might have beaten us to the nuts and berries, blast them!

 

[Robbity]

As I understand it our liver will create the necessary 120-130g glucose that our brain needs for its essential basic functions, but for the rest it's happy either to run on available glucose or on ketones. This 130g figure appears to be the basis of the belief that we must eat this number of carbs a day, but we don't as it's actually this amount of glucose we need and which is provided by the liver as basic brain fodder.

I assume that some of our liver's functions are to generate any essential glucose -e.g. also our wake up liver dump energy boost "breakfast"... which may also happen at other times rather than being on a dawn schedule. I remember early after diagnosis my body clock went a bit wonky- I was ill and waking up around 5pm to discover my liver was giving me my "morning" dump to suit this new timing.

@catinahat : Re zombies! I know my brain is much happier fuelled by ketones: eating a high carb diet for several years pre diagnosis turned me into a scarily brain fogged zombie. Since diagnosis I've generally eaten far less than 130g carbs a day (generally well under 50g and none at all on the rare occasions I've fasted all day) and my brain quite quickly got back to normal and functions quite happily at this low carby level. I often feel that being diagnosed with T2 has been one of the best things that happened to me as changing to a low carb/ketogenic style diet helped give me back my properly functioning brain.

 

[Oldvatr]

Although brain cells do not in general need insulin to work, the brain does seem to need insulin along with grehlin and leptin to control the metabolic processes such as hunger and saiety
This paper discusses possible pathways for brain insulin

Insulin Regulates Brain Function, but How Does It Get There?

We have learned over the last several decades that the brain is an important target for insulin action. Insulin in the central nervous system (CNS) affects feeding behavior and body energy stores, the metabolism of glucose and fats in the liver and adipose, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

And this paper discusses the concept of insulin resistance in the brain

Brain insulin resistance in type 2 diabetes and Alzheimer disease: concepts and conundrums

Considerable overlap has been identified in the risk factors, comorbidities and putative pathophysiological mechanisms of Alzheimer disease and related dementias (ADRDs) and type 2 diabetes mellitus (T2DM), two of the most pressing epidemics of our time. ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

So the idea of brains being hungry is not a daft concept at all

 

[LittleGreyCat]

No I’m not a zombie hungry for brains. Just feeling like a zombie without a brain today

But if our brains require approximately 150g of glucose a day to function, doesn’t that mean we (T2 with our own insulin) should all be able to eat that many carbs at least, knowing our brain will burn it regardless of whatever our other cells fail to do because of insulin resistance? Or are our brains insulin resistant too? and only snacking on the glucose feast 150g of carbs a day would represent to those of us on keto rather than eating it all?

Just how much gluconeogenisis is required when keto to provide the brain with the smorgasbord of glucose it seems to want in oreder to allow it to pick and choose nibbles whilst ignoring the bulk of it? It appears it might ultimately use 150 a day but it can’t use everything that’s offered so needs more offering, based on the first question I asked above, leaving the unused leftovers to sit in the blood and end up as fat cells.

Now I’ve typed this I‘m thinking if other cells can be IR why not the brain and it seems a silly question but I’ll ask it anyway.

About that 150 gram figure.

https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/does-the-brain-need-carbs

That states the (roughly) 150 grams of glucose figure for full carbohydrate metabolism, but suggests that 70% of the brain's energy requirements can be met by ketones.
So roughly 45 grams of glucose per day as a minimum.
This can be provided by gluconeogenesis.

You could view this as 2 grams of glucose per hour, which isn't very much.

 

[HSSS]

About that 150 gram figure.

https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/does-the-brain-need-carbs

That states the (roughly) 150 grams of glucose figure for full carbohydrate metabolism, but suggests that 70% of the brain's energy requirements can be met by ketones.
So roughly 45 grams of glucose per day as a minimum.
This can be provided by gluconeogenesis.

You could view this as 2 grams of glucose per hour, which isn't very much.

I always read this as 70% of overall needs, with ketones meeting the rest, rather than 70% of the 150g ish of glucose. Interesting And it does indeed read that way in this link.

 

[Lamont D]

I have stayed away from this thread because I haven't got the back up.
The 150g figure is highly debateable, regardless of how you cut it up. I know for sure our brains work better and clears when ketones are used. Without carbs, our energy levels are higher, we remember and take in more, and our brains are more reactive, effective, active and manages our health issues better when asleep!

If like me, you have fasted for more than three days, the difference in brain function is total. So, because I don't want a liver dump, where do I get the glucose? You would think I would need some, but my BG levels remain in normal levels all the time, very little variance.

The 150g nonsense, is in the medical books, and as such is taken as gospel, but like a lot of dietary recommendations is not supported by the experience of a whole raft of those on keto diet for a long time. I have had this quoted by nutritionists, dsns, doctors and sports dieticians. Who still get taught to carb load before exercise!!!!!!

Do you need to eat sufficient amounts of food to keep our brains working, as in three square meals, five portions of fruit and vegetables and so on?

The only time I get hungry is when I come out of normal levels. So my brain isn't hungry for more food, only for logic and reasoning.
Having bacon, eggs, mushrooms, tomatoes and onions all fried after an 80 hours fast is so much more enjoyable as your senses are so alert. It really tastes wonderful. Amazing!

Keep safe!

 

[HSSS]

I have stayed away from this thread because I haven't got the back up.
The 150g figure is highly debateable, regardless of how you cut it up. I know for sure our brains work better and clears when ketones are used. Without carbs, our energy levels are higher, we remember and take in more, and our brains are more reactive, effective, active and manages our health issues better when asleep!

If like me, you have fasted for more than three days, the difference in brain function is total. So, because I don't want a liver dump, where do I get the glucose? You would think I would need some, but my BG levels remain in normal levels all the time, very little variance.

The 150g nonsense, is in the medical books, and as such is taken as gospel, but like a lot of dietary recommendations is not supported by the experience of a whole raft of those on keto diet for a long time. I have had this quoted by nutritionists, dsns, doctors and sports dieticians. Who still get taught to carb load before exercise!!!!!!

Do you need to eat sufficient amounts of food to keep our brains working, as in three square meals, five portions of fruit and vegetables and so on?

The only time I get hungry is when I come out of normal levels. So my brain isn't hungry for more food, only for logic and reasoning.
Having bacon, eggs, mushrooms, tomatoes and onions all fried after an 80 hours fast is so much more enjoyable as your senses are so alert. It really tastes wonderful. Amazing!

Keep safe!

Hey I’m talking about zombies. No need for logic or backup. Just ideas.

I’ve always assumed the 150g refers to absolute glucose needs over and above what ketones can do for you in the lack of additional carbs (A lot of clarity for most of us) @LittleGreyCat has given an alternative view above of no many that might be.

I have to admit I’ve never dug down into where that 150g of glucose (not carbs) comes from. Nor have I assumed you need 3 meals a day or the 5 fruit and veg (which won’t help create ketones anyway)

By brain hunger I didn’t mean literally. I just meant where is brain fuel coming from

 

[Lamont D]

Hey I’m talking about zombies. No need for logic or backup. Just ideas.

I’ve always assumed the 150g refers to absolute glucose needs over and above what ketones can do for you in the lack of additional carbs (A lot of clarity for most of us) @LittleGreyCat has given an alternative view above of no many that might be.

I have to admit I’ve never dug down into where that 150g of glucose (not carbs) comes from. Nor have I assumed you need 3 meals a day or the 5 fruit and veg (which won’t help create ketones anyway)

By brain hunger I didn’t mean literally. I just meant where is brain fuel coming from

That is the magic soup of our hormones, cells, neurobiology, microbiology in our blood and the gunge of all the rest of our bodily fluids. And the percentage balance of each of the above our blood has.
And everyone of those ologists, are looking for explanations that is very difficult to understand.
Then there is DNA!
Then, different types of blood.
Neurons!

And so on.

As for zombies. I thought that they ate brains!
They move on instinct, autonomic response.
Are you only asking because of the zombie government full of morons?
And what makes them act like zombies?

 

[pixie1]

is 150g a random number or is there scientific evidence that 150g for the brain to function and how did they arrive to that conclusion. When I was not a diabetic T2, I did the Aitkin diet and well into ketone process, while doing a course at college for work. I was at my most sharpest mentally. As a T2 when low carbing my mental function is so much better than when eating carbs, as my brain would become dull.
Are people gullible into believing we need that many carbs.
Maybe its a non medical way of zombifying people into believing that carbohydrates are good, as the senses and brain power is dulled on overload, in turn, the pharmaceutical companies become rich as people become more ill with all sorts of conditions.

 

[HSSS]

is 150g a random number or is there scientific evidence that 150g for the brain to function and how did they arrive to that conclusion. When I was not a diabetic T2, I did the Aitkin diet and well into ketone process, while doing a course at college for work. I was at my most sharpest mentally. As a T2 when low carbing my mental function is so much better than when eating carbs, as my brain would become dull.
Are people gullible into believing we need that many carbs.
Maybe its a non medical way of zombifying people into believing that carbohydrates are good, as the senses and brain power is dulled on overload, in turn, the pharmaceutical companies become rich as people become more ill with all sorts of conditions.

Not sure where it came from but it’s 150g of glucose not carbs required (apparently). It’s just that too many don’t realise carbs are not the only source of glucose.

 

[pixie1]

Not sure where it came from but it’s 150g of glucose not carbs required (apparently). It’s just that too many don’t realise carbs are not the only source of glucose.

brain does not need carbs if it can use glucose from a different source. Making carbs obsolete as the body makes its own glucose.

 

[HSSS]

brain does not need carbs if it can use glucose from a different source. Making carbs obsolete as the body makes its own glucose.

Exactly what I said