My doctor was angry with me...

[bulkbiker]

That's great! If you are energetic, happy, healthy etc... all the power to you. I'm not telling anyone what to do, I'm explaining metabolic pathways, which may help some other people shed light on issue they are having. Personally on LCHF, I felt great for a few years, then quickly got hair thinning, freezing hands and feet, cortisol belly, terrible sleep, very high TSH of 6, poor digestion/constipation no matter what I ate.

Maybe this will strike a chord with some people. If you are healthy, that's fantastic. I'm not forcing anyone to do anything. Some may just find my very basic biochemistry stuff interesting on a logical level.

For some, it may give them hope that "NEVER EAT CARBS!" is not the only approach to improving glucose sensitivity!

So you have still not given us the secret that you have to dietary control of T2...you tease you... go on spill the beans.

 

[Member496333]

That's great! If you are energetic, happy, healthy etc... all the power to you. I'm not telling anyone what to do, I'm explaining metabolic pathways, which may help some other people shed light on issue they are having. Personally on LCHF, I felt great for a few years, then quickly got hair thinning, freezing hands and feet, cortisol belly, terrible sleep, very high TSH of 6, poor digestion/constipation no matter what I ate.

Maybe this will strike a chord with some people. If you are healthy, that's fantastic. I'm not forcing anyone to do anything. Some may just find my very basic biochemistry stuff interesting on a logical level.

For some, it may give them hope that "NEVER EAT CARBS!" is not the only approach to improving glucose sensitivity!

That’s fine, and we’re all entitled to air our views and experiences, but where I think you’re going wrong is in the apparent assumption that you’re the only person here with an understanding of human biology.

The reality is, science lessons aside, “NEVER EAT CARBS” as you put it, is the only tried and proven strategy for reversing diabetes, and clearly that is where most of those here who are into dietary ketosis are approaching the subject from. It’s all well and good quoting science books, but until you’ve tried to reverse diabetes yourself, I’d respectfully suggest that you consider you’re not uniquely qualified to excerpt scientific authority over those who have.

Peace

 

[torchman2]

Ah, lipotoxicity. Bikman has addressed this, too. In humans of course.

Lipotoxicity refers to accumulation in tissues, not just higher blood lipids. Blood lipids increase AFAIK when glucose is not present, since the lipids move into the blood to be metabolised. This is FAO (fatty acid oxidation)

 

[torchman2]

So you have still not given us the secret that you have to dietary control of T2...you tease you... go on spill the beans.

Hey mate, you are the one who triggered this by asking a question of me, to which I responded in extreme detail with 20 odd studies showing many substances can improve insulin sensitivity/reduce the rate of diabetes.

I thought you did it out of interest, but clearly you weren't interested, and those studies for some reason aren't relevant to you. The studies say it themselves: all of those substances/pathways improve insulin sensitivity or fix diabetes. It's not me writing them, the evidence is out there. If it breaks your world view too much, then that's your issue.

 

[torchman2]

The reality is, science lessons aside, “NEVER EAT CARBS” as you put it, is the only tried and proven strategy for reversing diabetes

When you eat high carb meals nowadays, do you not get high post-prandial and/or fasting BG?

 

[bulkbiker]

Hey mate, you are the one who triggered this by asking a question of me, to which I responded in extreme detail with 20 odd studies showing many substances can improve insulin sensitivity/reduce the rate of diabetes.

I thought you did it out of interest, but clearly you weren't interested, and those studies for some reason aren't relevant to you. The studies say it themselves: all of those substances/pathways improve insulin sensitivity or fix diabetes. It's not me writing them, the evidence is out there. If it breaks your world view too much, then that's your issue.

I have no problem with my "world view" being challenged or broken when I can see some firm evidence.
You have so far provided no information on your diabetes status or many details about your journey apart from LCHF and Keto "worked" for a while without explaining what it "worked" for.
Presenting a wall of text with lots of links to extremely detailed science without being able to explain it clearly in layman's terms just shows you are good at copy/paste but gives no further depth to your argument.
Dr's Greger and Barnard do very similar things and expect us all to stop eating meat because of it. I have neither the time nor particularly the inclination to read acres of studies that leave me none the wiser in the end.

 

[brassyblonde900]

This thread made me very sleepy and its only 18:59PM.(Naa I killed it at the gym today - all that hard work took it toll)
I'm off to search the site for an exercise forum, hopefully I will find some nuggets of gold, on how my new passion (weight training) can further add to the supremely awesome achievement I am experiencing - Keeping BGL in the optimal range.
Hopefully I'll come back in due course and read the links....sure hope my brain doesn't turn to scrambled brain.

 

[HSSS]

I’m hovering on the fence a little here. Being relatively new to diabetes (well diagnosed anyway) and lowcarb/keto and associated studies I’m still taking it all in.

So far I’ve been fairly convinced by the reduction in glucose arguments - 6 months of it so far for me. But your point that those of us taking in few carbs are still having higher than desired bgl means there’s still a problem in the system somewhere makes a basic level of sense to me. Not to mention frightening hair loss! What you say @torchman2 sounds interesting enough to find out more at least.

I too would like to know, in your experiences, what low carb keto did for you and what the interventions you listed above have done for you diabetic wise. How are you applying the studies oI list to your real life?

You say it’s basic stuff but if a person doesn’t have an academic or scientific background I think basic or layman’s terms starts a little earlier than your statements! And getting those dummy’s guide to a process before wading in to the heavy stuff gives me a big help in getting to grips with a concept before understanding the details.

 

[Member496333]

When you eat high carb meals nowadays, do you not get high post-prandial and/or fasting BG?

Is that a trick question? Are you suggesting that had I eaten more carbohydrate I’d never have become insulin resistant in the first place?

It’s beginning to look to me like you’re just spreading confusion on a prominent internet forum known to have a high percentage of successful low carbing diabetics. I’m sure it only looks that way though

 

[HSSS]

Is that a trick question? Are you suggesting that had I eaten more carbohydrate I’d never have become insulin resistant in the first place?

It’s beginning to look to me like you’re just spreading confusion on a prominent internet forum known to have a high percentage of successful low carbing diabetics. I’m sure it only looks that way though

Am I the one getting confused in your opinion? Quite possibly. But as I said I’m new and whilst very enthusiastic in adopting low carb and for now will continue, I’m still keen to hear about other potential options, even if I chose to reject them once I understand what they claim to offer, the same way I have the eatwell option and medications for now. Knowledge is power and I can only make choices if I know about them.

 

[Member496333]

Am I the one getting confused in your opinion? Quite possibly. But as I said I’m new and whilst very enthusiastic in adopting low carb and for now will continue, I’m still keen to hear about other potential options, even if I chose to reject them once I understand what they claim to offer, the same way I have the eatwell option and medications for now. Knowledge is power and I can only make choices if I know about them.

Possibly I’m not explaining myself. The assertion appears to be that dietary glucose reverses hyperglycaemia and the resultant hyperinsulinemia. This is what I’m disagreeing with. The very notion of it in the context of diabetes is, putting it politely, absurd. Everything else is views and opinions, which are completely fine, but when someone gatecrashes a diabetes forum and starts telling people they need to eat dietary glucose, it’s not fine.

EDIT: in summary, diabetes is excessive glucose in the body. If someone thinks that putting more in is going to fix it then...well...never mind.

In my opinion only

 

[torchman2]

I too would like to know, in your experiences, what low carb keto did for you and what the interventions you listed above have done for you diabetic wise. How are you applying the studies oI list to your real life?

Thanks for the comments. I only put the sciencey bits and links to studies to show I'm not just making it up. "magnesium helps T2 diabetes" really needs links to studies to show this.

Background--> I did low carb from around 2011-2013. Then Keto, then had hypothyroidism diagnosed around end of 2013. Started eating too many carbs, got fatter. No one told me I had to reteach my body to use carbs! Can't remember exact dates.

Main thing LCHF did for me was to get to 10% ish body fat, and have abs. I worked out a lot, did cardio etc. I felt good for about a year, then it tapered off but there are many related things: psychological effect of feeling "ripped", eating meals at the same time and recording calories etc. There was consistency to my eating, sleeping, training. So it can't all be attributed to just "LOW CARBS".

But I was also skinny considering how strong I was, now I see why.. the body was breaking down muscle tissue to make glucose. After a while, hair loss/thinning, bad sleep, freezing hands, as described above. I would wake up lots per night, need to pee a lot, etc.

At the time, I wanted to keep blood sugar low, so I had a BG meter. At one stage I had a neck issue that caused nerve pinching and numb fingers, and before this was diagnosed someone said it may be diabetes, so I used the meter to check that (this is 5/6 years ago). It wasn't diabetes, it was nerve issues, possibly from low Thyroid.

I pulled the meter out about a month ago (maybe even 5-6 weeks, guess it was first week of Nov), after being ill, and I was regularly hitting 10-12 FBG (12 FBG ***!!!), and 10 after eating. This went on for a few weeks. I was pretty shocked. For 2 weeks I don't think FBG was below 8. According to interwebs, I HAD DIABETES. Well, thankfully I had read enough to know I could do something about it. Was quite an interesting time, I was initially super freaked. I think I'd basically been eating too few meals per day, and eating close to 1000 calorie meals, with too much fat, and too much bread (sandwiches) and pasta. Plus being sick.

Just from eating regular, small meals, and taking magnesium and some B vitamins, (and few other things listed above, like aspiring and Vit K.. but mainly Mag and B complex) it's now within normal range again. I also upped my Thyroid hormone (t3). I'm testing BG 5+ times a day, there are little strips all over my house. I could see over the course of 2 weeks, I watched the FBG drop from 10, to 8s, to 7s, to 6s, to 5s.

So I can see what affects me: I can handle root vegetables, roasted or boiled, and most fruits. Bananas I can't, they're not ripe in UK and so have too much starch. I can't handle pasta or bread or pizza, it spikes post meal BG and the next day's FBG. I can do 50-60grams of carbs per meal (4 meals a day), and stay within 7-7.5 postprandial, and quickly drops to 5.5.

I ate a snack earlier after work today of 150-200grams of 5% Fage greek yogurt, and 30-40 grams of bonne mamon strawberry jam (2 tablespoons), so around 25-30grams of sugars... and tested 30 mins later... was 5.6

The things I listed above are Thyroid, magnesium, salt, calcium, Vit D, potassium, all the B vitamins (biotin, niacinamide, P5P, Thiamine etc), succinic acid, all held glucose clearance. Magnesium is the best for me, just having some at night before bed improves FBG.

 

[torchman2]

Possibly I’m not explaining myself. The assertion appears to be that dietary glucose reverses hyperglycaemia and the resultant hyperinsulinemia. This is what I’m disagreeing with. The very notion of it in the context of diabetes is, putting it politely, absurd. Everything else is views and opinions, which are completely fine, but when someone gatecrashes a diabetes forum and starts telling people they need to eat dietary glucose, it’s not fine.

EDIT: in summary, diabetes is excessive glucose in the body. If someone thinks that putting more in is going to fix it then...well...never mind.

In my opinion only

My argument is not that dietary glucose reverses hyperglycaemia. So maybe I explained myself badly.

This is my argument:

- diabetes is the inability to clear/process glucose.
- if you "have diabetes", it's not forever, and you can still improve glucose clearance.
- many factors affect glucose clearance, not just carb intake and insulin: there are many insulin-like co-factors, such as sodium, magnesium, potassium, calcium. Insulin industry wants people to focus on insulin, and spend their billions of dollars on that.
- removing glucose does not cure diabetes, it simply hides and manages the problem. If you go Keto, you (probably) make insulin resistance worse. Eat a big carb meal and see what happens to your BG!
- if you don't take in glucose, of course you won't get glucose spikes. Your body produces it, however, and that is a stressful response. Better to take in small, manageable, consistent amounts of carbs and teach your body to process them
- different types of carbs are worse than others - bread, pasta etc

Most people who are diagnosed with diabetes, have been eating hugely excessive modern western/American diet, of 100s of grams of carbs per meal, mixed with tons of fat, and hugely excessive calorie consumption, over too few meals, combined with sedentary, desk-based lifestyle. There are so many factors.

The answer is not only to stop all carbs!

 

[Bluetit1802]

The answer is not only to stop all carbs!

So what do you suggest the ordinary non-scientific person does?

 

[torchman2]

So what do you suggest the ordinary non-scientific person does?

Eat manageable amounts of carbs. That may only be 10-20-30g of carbs per meal, 4-5 times a day, to start, on the lower end if you have been doing keto... Because someone can't handle 50/100g of carbs in a meal, doesn't mean that carbs needs to be cut out. Carbs will be easier to process if they are not combined with large quantities of fat (which most fast food is).

Keep fat moderate, like 30% of calories or rather work towards that if you have been keto. Eat roughly the same total amount of calories per day, don't have days eating 1500, and days eating 3000.

If someone is starting from standard diet and new diagnosis, don't jump straight onto LC or VLC. Just reduce carbs to manageable levels, and learn that different carbs will have different effects. (for me, bread and pasta is a big no). Realise that chocolate isn't just sugar.. it's high fat and high calorie, so don't blame just the sugar element.

Slowly the carbs can be increased as the Randle Cycle kicks in and you process more, and using small amounts of supplements can really help. Test which carbs you can handle via Glucose meter. Craving and bingeing comes from the body realising it's starving and forcing you to eat. Consistent timings of small, regular meals, teaches the body to store glycogen and process carbs. Eat good quantity of protein to help the liver. Use gelatin as one source of protein. Have soups of green vegetables for the trace minerals which act like insulin (mag, sodium, potassium).

And then:

The things I listed above are Thyroid, magnesium, salt, calcium, Vit D, potassium, all the B vitamins (biotin, niacinamide, P5P, Thiamine etc), succinic acid, all help glucose clearance. Magnesium is the best for me, just having some at night before bed improves FBG.

Check Thyroid levels. Check Vit D levels. Check lactate.

 

[kokhongw]

Thanks for the comments. I only put the sciencey bits and links to studies to show I'm not just making it up. "magnesium helps T2 diabetes" really needs links to studies to show this.

Background--> I did low carb from around 2011-2013. Then Keto, then had hypothyroidism diagnosed around end of 2013. Started eating too many carbs, got fatter. No one told me I had to reteach my body to use carbs! Can't remember exact dates.

Main thing LCHF did for me was to get to 10% ish body fat, and have abs. I worked out a lot, did cardio etc. I felt good for about a year, then it tapered off but there are many related things: psychological effect of feeling "ripped", eating meals at the same time and recording calories etc. There was consistency to my eating, sleeping, training. So it can't all be attributed to just "LOW CARBS".

But I was also skinny considering how strong I was, now I see why.. the body was breaking down muscle tissue to make glucose. After a while, hair loss/thinning, bad sleep, freezing hands, as described above. I would wake up lots per night, need to pee a lot, etc.

At the time, I wanted to keep blood sugar low, so I had a BG meter. At one stage I had a neck issue that caused nerve pinching and numb fingers, and before this was diagnosed someone said it may be diabetes, so I used the meter to check that (this is 5/6 years ago). It wasn't diabetes, it was nerve issues, possibly from low Thyroid.

I pulled the meter out about a month ago (maybe even 5-6 weeks, guess it was first week of Nov), after being ill, and I was regularly hitting 10-12 FBG (12 FBG ***!!!), and 10 after eating. This went on for a few weeks. I was pretty shocked. For 2 weeks I don't think FBG was below 8. According to interwebs, I HAD DIABETES. Well, thankfully I had read enough to know I could do something about it. Was quite an interesting time, I was initially super freaked. I think I'd basically been eating too few meals per day, and eating close to 1000 calorie meals, with too much fat, and too much bread (sandwiches) and pasta. Plus being sick.

Just from eating regular, small meals, and taking magnesium and some B vitamins, (and few other things listed above, like aspiring and Vit K.. but mainly Mag and B complex) it's now within normal range again. I also upped my Thyroid hormone (t3). I'm testing BG 5+ times a day, there are little strips all over my house. I could see over the course of 2 weeks, I watched the FBG drop from 10, to 8s, to 7s, to 6s, to 5s.

So I can see what affects me: I can handle root vegetables, roasted or boiled, and most fruits. Bananas I can't, they're not ripe in UK and so have too much starch. I can't handle pasta or bread or pizza, it spikes post meal BG and the next day's FBG. I can do 50-60grams of carbs per meal (4 meals a day), and stay within 7-7.5 postprandial, and quickly drops to 5.5.

I ate a snack earlier after work today of 150-200grams of 5% Fage greek yogurt, and 30-40 grams of bonne mamon strawberry jam (2 tablespoons), so around 25-30grams of sugars... and tested 30 mins later... was 5.6

The things I listed above are Thyroid, magnesium, salt, calcium, Vit D, potassium, all the B vitamins (biotin, niacinamide, P5P, Thiamine etc), succinic acid, all held glucose clearance. Magnesium is the best for me, just having some at night before bed improves FBG.

Thanks for sharing your experience...but that does not match the typical profile of obese/overweight T2D that benefits immensely from LCHF, Keto, IF and extended fasting...who suffers from excessively high insulin levels which inhibits lipolysis. When they reach the stage where they are ripped, perhaps your enthusiastic suggestions would be more applicable...

 

[torchman2]

Thanks for sharing your experience...but that does not match the typical profile of obese/overweight T2D that benefits immensely from LCHF, Keto, IF and extended fasting...who suffers from excessively high insulin levels which inhibits lipolysis. When they reach the stage where they are ripped, perhaps your enthusiastic suggestions would be more applicable...

That was 5/6 years ago. I'm 15kg heavier today.

Edit: after getting bad on LC, I then went a more standard diet, after trying the GAPS diet, and was clearly insulin resistant and glucose intolerant from the LC / short Keto, hence packed on fat, especially belly fat, went up to around 23% body fat. Took me years to figure out, and now down to around 16/17% and pretty good.

 

[tomtom 2]

Been following this discussion with interest although a lot of the scientific stuff went straight over my head..
Nice to see someone has sorted their DM out using a method other than LCHF diet.
Sorted my DM out in the past year going the Resistant Starch route and that has improved my IR and can now handle around 50 to 60 grams carbs per meal.
This is the very first page I read on Resistant Starch.
https://www.southdenver.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Resistant-Starch-for-web.pdf


Tom

 

[torchman2]

Been following this discussion with interest although a lot of the scientific stuff went straight over my head..
Nice to see someone has sorted their DM out using a method other than LCHF diet.
Sorted my DM out in the past year going the Resistant Starch route and that has improved my IR and can now handle around 50 to 60 grams carbs per meal.
This is the very first page I read on Resistant Starch.
https://www.southdenver.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Resistant-Starch-for-web.pdf


Tom

Nice, so you mean you can now eat any carbs, or only resistant starch?

 

[kokhongw]

Eat manageable amounts of carbs. That may only be 10-20-30g of carbs per meal, 4-5 times a day, to start, on the lower end if you have been doing keto... Because someone can't handle 50/100g of carbs in a meal, doesn't mean that carbs needs to be cut out. Carbs will be easier to process if they are not combined with large quantities of fat (which most fast food is).

Keep fat moderate, like 30% of calories or rather work towards that if you have been keto. Eat roughly the same total amount of calories per day, don't have days eating 1500, and days eating 3000.

If someone is starting from standard diet and new diagnosis, don't jump straight onto LC or VLC. Just reduce carbs to manageable levels, and learn that different carbs will have different effects. (for me, bread and pasta is a big no). Realise that chocolate isn't just sugar.. it's high fat and high calorie, so don't blame just the sugar element.

Slowly the carbs can be increased as the Randle Cycle kicks in and you process more, and using small amounts of supplements can really help. Test which carbs you can handle via Glucose meter. Craving and bingeing comes from the body realising it's starving and forcing you to eat. Consistent timings of small, regular meals, teaches the body to store glycogen and process carbs. Eat good quantity of protein to help the liver. Use gelatin as one source of protein. Have soups of green vegetables for the trace minerals which act like insulin (mag, sodium, potassium).

And then:

Check Thyroid levels. Check Vit D levels. Check lactate.

This is not too far from what has generally been suggested here...which is adequate carbs reduction, eat to your meter. Not complete carbs elimination...but there is always those who looks for faster weightloss etc that is where the discussion leads to keto, if and extended fasting.

And the Randle Cycle don't appear to be all about glucose metabolism...so it is always cycling between glucose or fatty acids...is it not?

The Randle cycle is a biochemical mechanism involving the competition between glucose and fatty acids for their oxidation and uptake in muscle and adipose tissue. The cycle controls fuel selection and adapts the substrate supply and demand in normal tissues. This cycle adds a nutrient-mediated fine tuning on top of the more coarse hormonal control on fuel metabolism. This adaptation to nutrient availability applies to the interaction between adipose tissue and muscle. Hormones that control adipose tissue lipolysis affect circulating concentrations of fatty acids, these in turn control the fuel selection in muscle. Mechanisms involved in the Randle Cycle include allosteric control, reversible phosphorylation and the expression of key enzymes.[5] The energy balance from meals composed of differing macronutrient composition is identical, but the glucose and fat balances that contribute to the overall energy balance change reciprocally with meal composition.[6]