My doctor was angry with me...

[torchman2]

I have little to no glucose to oxidise.

You really need to read about gluconeogenesis.

What are your BG Readings? Your body endogenously creates glucose if you don't consume it (through your own muscle protein breakdown, or through converting the protein/fat you eat), hence why you will still have BG readings of 5 and above. This glucose comes from somewhere, and it will still be metabolised.

 

[Member496333]

Pretty sure you’ll find that anyone serious about dietary ketosis is aware of gluconeogenesis. It’s perfectly natural and it’s what humans would have been doing all winter for millions of years.

You’re not the only one with a science book

 

[torchman2]

To conflate nutritional ketosis with being in starvation mode is a mistake, in my opinion. You may be interested in the results from the Virta studies and the research into Alzheimer's Disease and the promising early studies, and the clinical application of ketogenic diets as an adjunct to some (but not all) cancer treatments.

I was LCHF for about 2 years, then Keto for about 9 months. Initially felt good, had a sixpack, but then had horrible stress reactions from the catacholamines, leading to prolonged health issues. I know all about LCHF and Keto's supposed benefits.

 

[bulkbiker]

You really need to read about gluconeogenesis.

What are your BG Readings? Your body endogenously creates glucose if you don't consume it (through your own muscle protein breakdown, or through converting the protein/fat you eat), hence why you will still have BG readings of 5 and above. This glucose comes from somewhere, and it will still be metabolised.

Just tested at 4.7 mmol/l
GNG is, I believe current thinking goes, a demand driven process so the glucose your body needs to keep your blood sugar stable is produced from dietary protein (which I eat a lot of).
I know a fair bit about GNG .. did you watch the Dr Ben Bikman video I sent you a link to fairly recently when you joined up?
It explains it well in fairly simple terms.

 

[torchman2]

Pretty sure you’ll find that anyone serious about dietary ketosis is aware of gluconeogenesis. It’s perfectly natural and it’s what humans would have been doing all winter for millions of years.

Exactly, it's the hibernation metabolism. Bears are diabetic when they come out of winter due to oxidising fat.

Also, if he knew about gluconeogenesis, why is saying there is no glucose to metabolise? There's clearly still glucose in his blood!

 

[torchman2]

Just tested at 4.7 mmol/l

So you do have glucose to metabolise, whether you like it or not

 

[bulkbiker]

So you do have glucose to metabolise, whether you like it or not

I think I'd be dead if I didn't..no need to eat it though.

 

[Member496333]

Hang on. Time out. Humans hibernate?

 

[Member496333]

BRB just off for a nap.

Back in four months

 

[bulkbiker]

why is saying there is no glucose to metabolise

I said little to no.. please don't misrepresent what I said.. one of my pet hates.

 

[Guzzler]

As to muscle breakdown Phillips and Fung would argue against that premise (as well as Bikman).

 

[bulkbiker]

Bears are diabetic when they come out of winter due to oxidising fat

I would imagine that bears are in deep ketosis when they awake from hibernation.. I've never got close enough to measure their finger prick results though..

 

[torchman2]

Hang on. Time out. Humans hibernate?

Not in the same way as bears, but we had a form of hibernation, where we would have lower metabolism, lower activity, lower energy expenditure to match the poorer food supply and shorter days, and longer periods asleep.

Generally, human sleep cycles matched day lengths. So yes, there is a human-equivalent hibernation: longer sleep, less activity.

 

[Member496333]

I’m going to settle on the evidence of my own good health, and the views of the likes of Jason Fung and Tim Noakes.

 

[Member496333]

...So yes, there is a human-equivalent hibernation: longer sleep, less activity.

Otherwise know as ketosis.

 

[torchman2]

I would imagine that bears are in deep ketosis when they awake from hibernation.. I've never got close enough to measure their finger prick results though..

Luckily, scientists have done that:
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn26008-grizzly-bears-become-diabetic-when-they-hibernate/
"As the bears put on weight in preparation for the winter, they responded normally to insulin – which prevents the breakdown of fatty tissue. But during hibernation, insulin effectively stopped working. That is a symptom in people with type 2 diabetes, in which high fat levels in the blood induce insulin resistance."

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/animals-hibernating-treat-diabetes-alzheimers
"the same thing happens in black bears as they enter hibernation; they become insulin resistant. This keeps their cells from absorbing blood sugar (glucose), which enables them to draw energy from fats that have built up in the weeks prior to hibernation. In terms of blood chemistry, hibernating bears look like diabetic humans, but on revival from hibernation the chemistry returns to normal. This suggests there must be a chemical pathway underlying insulin sensitivity that can be adjusted. If scientists can get a hold on such a pathway, they might be able reverse the same effect in diabetic people."

 

[Boo1979]

No, that's called a strawman argument, where you make up what I said..

Seen a few of those myself

 

[bulkbiker]

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn26008-grizzly-bears-become-diabetic-when-they-hibernate/
"As the bears put on weight in preparation for the winter, they responded normally to insulin – which prevents the breakdown of fatty tissue. But during hibernation, insulin effectively stopped working. That is a symptom in people with type 2 diabetes, in which high fat levels in the blood induce insulin resistance."

Sounds very much like they are mixing up insulin resistance and ketosis? The bears effectively fast for 4 months using their body fat as fuel. The fuel they store in the autumn.

 

[Guzzler]

Luckily, scientists have done that:
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn26008-grizzly-bears-become-diabetic-when-they-hibernate/
"As the bears put on weight in preparation for the winter, they responded normally to insulin – which prevents the breakdown of fatty tissue. But during hibernation, insulin effectively stopped working. That is a symptom in people with type 2 diabetes, in which high fat levels in the blood induce insulin resistance."

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/animals-hibernating-treat-diabetes-alzheimers
"the same thing happens in black bears as they enter hibernation; they become insulin resistant. This keeps their cells from absorbing blood sugar (glucose), which enables them to draw energy from fats that have built up in the weeks prior to hibernation. In terms of blood chemistry, hibernating bears look like diabetic humans, but on revival from hibernation the chemistry returns to normal. This suggests there must be a chemical pathway underlying insulin sensitivity that can be adjusted. If scientists can get a hold on such a pathway, they might be able reverse the same effect in diabetic people."

Ah, lipotoxicity. Bikman has addressed this, too. In humans of course.

 

[torchman2]

I’m going to settle on the evidence of my own good health, and the views of the likes of Jason Fung and Tim Noakes.

That's great! If you are energetic, happy, healthy etc... all the power to you. I'm not telling anyone what to do, I'm explaining metabolic pathways, which may help some other people shed light on issue they are having. Personally on LCHF, I felt great for a few years, then quickly got hair thinning, freezing hands and feet, cortisol belly, terrible sleep, very high TSH of 6, poor digestion/constipation no matter what I ate.

Maybe this will strike a chord with some people. If you are healthy, that's fantastic. I'm not forcing anyone to do anything. Some may just find my very basic biochemistry stuff interesting on a logical level.

For some, it may give them hope that "NEVER EAT CARBS!" is not the only approach to improving glucose sensitivity!