My experiences so far ...

Bellx15

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I certainly don't want to come across as being pompous, self-opinionated or even pig-headed, so if what i am going to say here seems just wrong, or questionable, I warmly invite others to set me straight. However, having said that:

Since I produced high fasting BG readings some two or three years ago, the highest being 17.9, I think, I really feel that the NHS has approached me and my health in completely inappropriate ways. The following are the reasons for saying this:

1. I was diagnosed as having diabetes on the basis of these results. The rationale for this over-hasty diagnosis was explained - unless you were a diabetic you would never get these readings. Therefore, you are diabetic. A healthy person could cope with any amount of glucose without ever reaching this level.

Where does this come from? They were not even interested in how I managed to attain these high readings. In fact, I was either drinking 3 litres of orange juice per day or downing four cans of Special Brew per day, over a period of eight months or more. Don't ask me why, please. :oops: The point is just that (a) there MUST be tolerance limits for a normal person,(b) I think I exceeded them, and therefore (c) reverting to a healthy diet might well reverse/remove the problem. If that is true, then, I think the label 'diabetic' was applied prematurely.

2. Even more serious, I think, was the claim that type 2 diabetes is a progressive condition. It will get worse over time. Yes - that is what the nurse told me. Thankfully, I knew better and was able to correct her on that. "In some cases", I said. She had to agree, but wasn't about to volunteer this information. The dietary excesses I set out in 1 above are a prime example of when T2D will not be expected to progress. It depends on whether you continue with the excesses or not. Obviously. But even if the T2D has developed without being brought on by such bodily abuse, I think it is wrong and grossly irresponsible to tell people their condition WILL get worse. How dare they?

3. Eagerness to prescribe medications before all of the above has been explored and tested. Once you are on Metformin, any improvements can be masqueraded as beneficial effects of the drug. From that point on, the possibility of testing this claim has been taken away from you. Exercise regime, improved diet, etc. can no longer be evaluated because all changes are Metformin-induced changes. And guess what - all improvements just go to show that you really needed the medication, and will now be needing it for life (because, once on the drug, you can never show that your condition is reversible).

4. Dietary advice. Even if the NHS Eatwell plate represents a good, balanced intake for a healthy person, it certainly cannot do so for someone with misbehaving BGs. When my BGs were out of control, I know that I would spike up from 7.5 to 15 an hour after eating two small potatoes. What is the rationale for recommending a diet high in carbs when you are thought to have T2D ??? It seems insane to me. The explanation I got from the nurse, as from the booklet, was that we all need carbs; they are essential for energy. I was also told that protein does not provide energy.

I don't know why we are being misled in all these ways. is it deliberate or just based on ignorance?

Anyway, just for completeness, here is what happened to me subsequently. I just stopped over-indulging in Special Brew, turning to dry white wine instead, and cutting down too, cut out orange juice almost completely, and went for an energetic walk almost daily. Six months on I now have just produced an Hba1c of 6.2, and a preprandial tea-time BG of 4.8. My lipids HDL 1.1 and LDL 3.7, both vastly improved. Cholesterol is down from 8.5 to 6.4, and presumably still falling. Triglycerides 3.5 - down from above 10.

Just looking at all these improvements over six months, how can I avoid the conclusion that my condition was temporary and abuse-driven?? Why doesn't the GP react to initial high readings with "Let's start by seeing how you respond to some basic lifestyle changes. You might turn out to be perfectly healthy"?
 

Indy51

Expert
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5,540
Type of diabetes
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Diet only
I would refer you to Jenny Ruhl's post about normal blood glucose levels as tracked in non-diabetics:

http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/16422495.php

Which also links to a study by Dr Christianson:

http://www.diabetes-symposium.org/index ... t=4&id=322

Hate to tell you, but 17.9 is way, way higher than any non-diabetic would ever achieve, regardless of what they have ingested.

I tend to agree with you regarding your other points. The advice normally given to diabetics by the medical profession definitely leads to a progression in symptoms/complications and the dietary advice is a complete joke.

Still, if you're wanting someone to tell you that you aren't or were never a diabetic, I don't think that is likely to happen.

The only way to test that theory would be to have a GTT.
 

BioHaZarD

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771
Type of diabetes
Treatment type
Diet only
I agree too with the dietary advice, I don't agee with your figures, your HbA1c is higher than mine, I have a HbA1c of 5.5 and I am diabetic type 2. On your highs and figures I would say you do have diabetes. Unfortunately no amount of being good will reverse the condition.
 

Bellx15

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Thanks for the responses. Points taken, but I should add that my readings are still improving.

Regarding the high readings (17.9) I am accepting that my system was knackered at that stage, and couldn't cope with all the glucose, but I still believe that I am headed for completely normal BG on a completely normal D&E regime. I'm not on low carbs. How much of the disorder is permanent and irreversible seems moot at this stage.
 

BioHaZarD

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771
Type of diabetes
Treatment type
Diet only
I believe that if you get a high figure then your pancreas is faulty, therefor your tolerance is impaired, you may get to a lower BG level and maintain it with less work, but I would suggest that a biscuit or sugary drink would then prove otherwise. You could of course have another medical reason for this...
 

Bellx15

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Yes, that's possible, and the GTT is worth doing. I'll do it at home shortly.

My gripe is with the assumed wisdom that the body (e.g., pancreas) is not capable of repairing itself. I just will not accept this without some convincing evidence.
 

Superchip

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Cheap Whisky !
Bellx15, Excellent post, you raise some interesting points.

I think that a bit more experimentation by you is called for to establish your ability to deal with glucose. Please keep us posted.

Absolutely love the avatar ! made me laugh on a soggy wednesday !

Regards Superchip
 

KennyS

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Messages
114
While I agree with you that the NHS does indeed point people diagnosed with T2 in the wrong direction with regard to diet and with the presumption that a person doesn't have the ability to stop inevitable decline, I think that you are putting more faith in the regenerative nature of the body than you should. Having said that, I don't think anyone who is confronted with the diagnosis of diabetes and its potential eventualities, who cares about their own quality of life should give up on the idea that they can 'beat this thing'. At the same time one must operate within a certain sphere of reality..... If you can't pass a GTT.... you are broke in one of a couple of ways. Like I told my nurse, "I have come off the idea that I can cure myself, but I will never give up on the idea that I can prevent the 'inevitable' deterioration that the NHS advertises as fact". She invited me to speak to other diabetics and I told her that she might want to reconsider that as I might not give advise that is consistent with NHS policy... One day, after I have shown her and my doctor and their associates what an individual has the power to do, maybe they will want me to tell my story, unedited... maybe they will want to tell my story for me..... You must however read the thousands of accounts on this sight that have taken control of their diabetes, have lost weight to normal and lowered their BG to normal, BP to normal, Cholesterol to normal, but work day in and day out to keep it that way.... they are still diabetics.

Kenny :thumbup:
 

BioHaZarD

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Messages
771
Type of diabetes
Treatment type
Diet only
KennyS said:
While I agree with you that the NHS does indeed point people diagnosed with T2 in the wrong direction with regard to diet and with the presumption that a person doesn't have the ability to stop inevitable decline, I think that you are putting more faith in the regenerative nature of the body than you should. Having said that, I don't think anyone who is confronted with the diagnosis of diabetes and its potential eventualities, who cares about their own quality of life should give up on the idea that they can 'beat this thing'. At the same time one must operate within a certain sphere of reality..... If you can't pass a GTT.... you are broke in one of a couple of ways. Like I told my nurse, "I have come off the idea that I can cure myself, but I will never give up on the idea that I can prevent the 'inevitable' deterioration that the NHS advertises as fact". She invited me to speak to other diabetics and I told her that she might want to reconsider that as I might not give then advise that is consistent with NHS policy... One day, after I have shown her and my doctor and their associates what an individual has the power to do, maybe they will want me to tell my story, uneditted... maybe they will want to tell my story for me..... You must however read the thousands of accounts on this sight that have taken control of their diabetes, have lost weight to normal and lowered their BG to normal, BP to normal, Cholesterol to normal, but work day in and day out to keep it that way.... they are still diabetics.

Kenny :thumbup:

+1, well said :D
 

Cowboyjim

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1,294
Good posts... and here IS the place to get it off your chest... will read some more later but for now...

"BellX15"? What kind of name is that?

Combines the first supersonic platform the Bell X1 with the first hypersonic machine, the North American X-15! Cute!

I love planes of course... 8)

And also I concur with the "us vs the NHS"... this forum is replete with countless tales of frustration that mystify the "unbelievers" i.e. those have yet to encounter all this and glaze over when you start telling them about your experiences.... more fool them.
 

Bellx15

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KennyS said:
While I agree with you that the NHS does indeed point people diagnosed with T2 in the wrong direction with regard to diet and with the presumption that a person doesn't have the ability to stop inevitable decline, I think that you are putting more faith in the regenerative nature of the body than you should. Having said that, I don't think anyone who is confronted with the diagnosis of diabetes and its potential eventualities, who cares about their own quality of life should give up on the idea that they can 'beat this thing'. At the same time one must operate within a certain sphere of reality..... If you can't pass a GTT.... you are broke in one of a couple of ways. Like I told my nurse, "I have come off the idea that I can cure myself, but I will never give up on the idea that I can prevent the 'inevitable' deterioration that the NHS advertises as fact". She invited me to speak to other diabetics and I told her that she might want to reconsider that as I might not give advise that is consistent with NHS policy... One day, after I have shown her and my doctor and their associates what an individual has the power to do, maybe they will want me to tell my story, unedited... maybe they will want to tell my story for me..... You must however read the thousands of accounts on this sight that have taken control of their diabetes, have lost weight to normal and lowered their BG to normal, BP to normal, Cholesterol to normal, but work day in and day out to keep it that way.... they are still diabetics.

Kenny :thumbup:

All reasonable comment, but I would just round it off by suggesting that even in accordance with your account, the label 'diabetic' becomes a lot less menacing than it started out. If someone can maintain normal glucose levels with diet and exercise, then diabetic they might still be, but they are essentially normal unless they break their regime. I can live with that (literally) :D
 

Bellx15

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Cowboyjim said:
Good posts... and here IS the place to get it off your chest... will read some more later but for now...

"BellX15"? What kind of name is that?

Combines the first supersonic platform the Bell X1 with the first hypersonic machine, the North American X-15! Cute!

I love planes of course... 8)

I don't know why i remember it as the bell X15, but I do. I can find other references to that name on t'internet too. Bell competed for the contract, but I don't know whether they were eventually involved. Do tell!
 

Cowboyjim

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1,294
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_X-planes

Seems Bell got the less well-known X14 precursor in the series but did not take part in the X15. This was designed and built by that amazing company North American... whose first big success was of course the P51 (well, once they had the brilliant idea of putting a RR Merlin in it!). And so many other successes... the Mitchell, the Sabre... the Vigilante, Valkyrie... all some of my fave planes. Sadly the name is no more and except for the likes of us, unknown amongst the hoi polloi. Seems the name disappeared after the company ended up within the sprawling colossus that is Boeing, a shame.
 

BioHaZarD

Well-Known Member
Messages
771
Type of diabetes
Treatment type
Diet only
Bellx15 said:
KennyS said:
While I agree with you that the NHS does indeed point people diagnosed with T2 in the wrong direction with regard to diet and with the presumption that a person doesn't have the ability to stop inevitable decline, I think that you are putting more faith in the regenerative nature of the body than you should. Having said that, I don't think anyone who is confronted with the diagnosis of diabetes and its potential eventualities, who cares about their own quality of life should give up on the idea that they can 'beat this thing'. At the same time one must operate within a certain sphere of reality..... If you can't pass a GTT.... you are broke in one of a couple of ways. Like I told my nurse, "I have come off the idea that I can cure myself, but I will never give up on the idea that I can prevent the 'inevitable' deterioration that the NHS advertises as fact". She invited me to speak to other diabetics and I told her that she might want to reconsider that as I might not give advise that is consistent with NHS policy... One day, after I have shown her and my doctor and their associates what an individual has the power to do, maybe they will want me to tell my story, unedited... maybe they will want to tell my story for me..... You must however read the thousands of accounts on this sight that have taken control of their diabetes, have lost weight to normal and lowered their BG to normal, BP to normal, Cholesterol to normal, but work day in and day out to keep it that way.... they are still diabetics.

Kenny :thumbup:



All reasonable comment, but I would just round it off by suggesting that even in accordance with your account, the label 'diabetic' becomes a lot less menacing than it started out. If someone can maintain normal glucose levels with diet and exercise, then diabetic they might still be, but they are essentially normal unless they break their regime. I can live with that (literally) :D

I think maybe you are grasping to the "I want to be normal" mantra? And not 100% excepted that you have a lifetime complication? Well yes, if you can maintain a stable and low BG level you can be "normal", but that should not distract you from the truth, you have diabetes and not just diet can effect that, stress, colds, etc have a roll too. You still have to be careful what you eat and what you do.

I fully intend to lead a "normal life" I have a great HbA1c, 90% of the time I am in my low 5's everyday. I certainly don't feel like I have diabetes or something wrong with me, but I know it's there. :D
 

Bellx15

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And the very best to you - I hope things continue in this vein. :)

Maybe I do have diabetes - so I'll certainly remain aware of the need for a bit of care. On the other hand, I will take a lot of convincing that my current state is harmful to me. It reminds me so much of the other yardsticks we are trained to fear - blood pressure, cholesterol, body weight, and on and on. They are all immensely profitable business ploys, and I am not taken in by any of them. Of course blood pressure is harmful the higher it gets, so of course it needs to be monitored and possibly controlled. Same with all these factors. I am just not going to get 'bent out of shape' over any of them.

Whenever misrepresentation stands to make money, there will be misrepresentation. Sorry - yes, I am cynical, but as a former lecturer in health care ethics I am not simply talking out of the wrong orifice. :mrgreen:
 

sassywriter43

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63
I shall back Bellx 15 point here though. My husbands grandmother got diagnosed with type 2 when she was 50. She is in her early 90s. She was first diet controlled, then went onto metformin, then glicizide, then insulin, back down to just metformin. She then went into have her hip operated on, and lost her appetite. Went from 12 stone to 6 and a half stone in 6 months, to just a diet controlled diabetic. She has been told 3 months ago she is no longer diabetic! She had a HBA1c of 4.2. Cholesterol total of 2.2. She said she was told it would never go away!!!

All complications have literally gone. Yes she has had a GTT and she PASSED!!!!! Now whatever she done it worked, and yes they are keeping an eye on her. She is keeping up with whatever diet she has been on though.
 

GraceK

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sassywriter43 said:
I shall back Bellx 15 point here though. My husbands grandmother got diagnosed with type 2 when she was 50. She is in her early 90s. She was first diet controlled, then went onto metformin, then glicizide, then insulin, back down to just metformin. She then went into have her hip operated on, and lost her appetite. Went from 12 stone to 6 and a half stone in 6 months, to just a diet controlled diabetic. She has been told 3 months ago she is no longer diabetic! She had a HBA1c of 4.2. Cholesterol total of 2.2. She said she was told it would never go away!!!

All complications have literally gone. Yes she has had a GTT and she PASSED!!!!! Now whatever she done it worked, and yes they are keeping an eye on her. She is keeping up with whatever diet she has been on though.

Sassy ... Ask your Grandmother in law what her diet consists of and share it with us ... and tell her the Diabetic Forum think she's b****y marvellous! :D
 

Bellx15

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Thanks, sassy - I do think that with most chronic conditions the human body has an incredible capacity for adjustment and self-repair. A T2D who follows the GP's advice is never going to improve, I am sure, but maybe that is why the belief that diabetes is an inevitable downhill slide has taken such a hold?

By the way, I am now keeping my BG down to the 5 range without any meds whatever. I need regular exercise, but who at our age doesn't?

sassywriter43 said:
I shall back Bellx 15 point here though. My husbands grandmother got diagnosed with type 2 when she was 50. She is in her early 90s. She was first diet controlled, then went onto metformin, then glicizide, then insulin, back down to just metformin. She then went into have her hip operated on, and lost her appetite. Went from 12 stone to 6 and a half stone in 6 months, to just a diet controlled diabetic. She has been told 3 months ago she is no longer diabetic! She had a HBA1c of 4.2. Cholesterol total of 2.2. She said she was told it would never go away!!!

All complications have literally gone. Yes she has had a GTT and she PASSED!!!!! Now whatever she done it worked, and yes they are keeping an eye on her. She is keeping up with whatever diet she has been on though.
 

sassywriter43

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63
I shall get my husband to as I mentioned in a previous forum I am housebound - bedbound due to having ME. I am trying to take one day at a time, and trying to recover myself. I am also a recovering anorexic. having been pushed into the obese section because of medication.