My personal hypothesis - T2 - Low insulin Diet

CherryAA · Oct 12, 2017

DCUKMod said:
That's a variation on a similar theme to the Joe Henson's paper out of the NIHR in Leicester, where he found merely standing up for 5 minutes each hour made a difference.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...Postmenopausal_Women_A_Randomized_Acute_Study

Obviously the artificial pancreas participants will have much more data than Joe's study participants.

That piece of work allegedly cost the NIHR a chunk of money in rise/fall desks for people who work there.

I did generally try to go for a brief walk after eating as I've read a lot of research that suggests that helps ( and found it does for me too). And I plan to continue with it. Interestingly the big drop seems to come when I sit back down again afterwards !

During my three magic lasagne days I did nothing - because I didn't want to confound it by the exercise.

I also invested in a stand up desk, and a walking rolling road trainer - ( so I can walk and work at the same time ) the cats had more fun with it than I did , though it is on the list of things to get out and reuse . In the meantime I am a lot more conscious about standing up and moving around every hour or so. I used to be able to focus on work for a 15 hour stretch more or less without moving - more fool me.

CherryAA · Oct 12, 2017

http://foodmed.net/2017/10/11/noakes-hpcsa-lose-new-war-against-me/

Professor Tim Noakes is the guy that got me onto the right track an the date from his study that I participated in that made me appreciate what was going on regarding fasting insulin .

If I ever want to get someone to start thinking about getting sugar out of their diet, I ask them to sit through a couple of his deposition hearings in the trial against him.

In my opinion this series of lectures is the finest series available that ties together what has happened to us as a society. I am astonished that the persecution continues.

There have been numerous threads about Tim Noakes on this website. I notice that this thread is now getting quite a lot of views. If anyone reading this has not seen any of this stuff, then please take a look .

One day the world will see him as a hero, just like John Yudkin and Gary Fettke. instead of persecuting them.

Chook · Oct 12, 2017

I've decided that rather than jump from 800 calories (which I'm on at the moment) to 1500 calories, I think I'll take it slowly and increase to 1000 calories (at least for the first two weeks) but try and keep the macros as you have suggested. I hope it gets easier cos its just taken me three hours to work out the menu for next week to get calories, carbs, protein and fat correct.... then doing a menu for Mr Chook (who eats a paleo diet but works a strange shift pattern) and then finally working out an order for delivery by Asda. I think I need a lie down now!

I've decided to leave it until the week after to make the 'magic lasagne' - I must go back over this thread to find the recipe.

I'm just keeping the first week simple with a small avocado each day as a starter, then meat / fish plus veg / salad and good fats and maybe a little Alpro icecream alternative as dessert. I did think about berries and cream.... I just don't enjoy cream.

CherryAA · Oct 12, 2017

Here is an example of just how insidious Omega 6 oils are.

I have a friend M. We are making great progress in sorting out his health problems . M is a classic patient of a struggling NHS practice where there is little discussion about why or how, a lot of medication and little actual testing.

I have known M for a few years, and in all that time he has been an insulin dependent diabetic. I knew nothing about diabetes, so apart from saying, try and keep your diet healthy, I have not really had much to do with his health at all, until a year ago.

M knew I had diabetes , he saw what I did about it in terms of an LCHF diet , he was taking both metformin and insulin and he had been doing so for 14 years. His doctor had recently told him this wasn't working and that he would need to add more medication and even more insulin.

He told me that he experienced swings from low 3 to mid 20's on a regular basis and he had decided to copy me and try to come off the medication even if it was without his doctor's support. He's a very stubborn guy. Slowly he worked to reduce his insulin and reduce the metformin , with me keeping an eye on him and trying to make sure that he would not be left vulnerable if it didn't work.

One year later he is noticeably thinner round his middle , he has stopped taking insulin and stopped all other medications
his blood sugars now range between 5 and 10 so all in all a real poster child for the potential of an LCHF diet.

M has always suffered from bowel problems, and despite the overall improvements in health, he has continued to suffer , with recent investigations being is whether he is gluten intolerant or maybe coeliac.

As part of his healthy diet he has been eating fatty fish - mainly sardines, that seemed very sensible so I haven't queried it until today. when after a particularly bad episode this weekend, I figured it was time to see if I could figure out what might be happening.

Today I asked him to bring the can and show me what he did with it.

https://www.mysupermarket.co.uk/tes...cean_Rise_Sardines_in_Sunflower_Oil_125g.html
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/food/calories/541746143

Looks pretty good.
But then notice - these figures have been achieved by " draining" the can - i.e. getting rid of the Omega 6 sunflower oil the product is covered in.

Sardines in their natural state are 10g om 3 and 28g om 6 - ie 1:3 ratio , sardines in sunflower in my fitness pal "drained" are a similar ratio -

This is a classic reliable, healthy choice for someone looking to get a healthy dose of Omega 3 oils. On the back of the tin it says 5 g polyunsaturated, 5g mono - only 3g saturated - "my that looks healthy - nice balance of all the good stuff limited nasty saturated fats. "

Today I watched M prepare his food. He is not draining the can - after all "he's LCHF, HF is good for you - so why should I ?"

If he eats the can drained he gets 1.5g om 3,: 3.3 g Omega 6 so a 2:1 ratio with only 3.3g of inflammatory oils
If he eats the can undrained he gets 2.4 om3. and 10.3 Om 6 so a ratio of 4.25 to 1 and more than three times as much inflammatory oil .

M has actually been eating two cans, undrained - so 4.8 om 3 and 20.6 om 6 - that is for the " healthiest "component of his daily diet., an LCHF meal 68% fats but with a massive overdose of omega 6.

I don't know if that might be why he is suffering from all the inflammation he is, but as of today he so no longer eating quite so much sunflower oil ! I'll report back if that helps him.

CherryAA · Oct 12, 2017

Chook said:
I've decided that rather than jump from 800 calories (which I'm on at the moment) to 1500 calories, I think I'll take it slowly and increase to 1000 calories (at least for the first two weeks) but try and keep the macros as you have suggested. I hope it gets easier cos its just taken me three hours to work out the menu for next week to get calories, carbs, protein and fat correct.... then doing a menu for Mr Chook (who eats a paleo diet but works a strange shift pattern) and then finally working out an order for delivery by Asda. I think I need a lie down now!

I've decided to leave it until the week after to make the 'magic lasagne' - I must go back over this thread to find the recipe.

I'm just keeping the first week simple with a small avocado each day as a starter, then meat / fish plus veg / salad and good fats and maybe a little Alpro icecream alternative as dessert. I did think about berries and cream.... I just don't enjoy cream.

That will be interesting to see. My initial plan was definitely 1000 calories, so I fully expect to need to do that at some stage. The Om 3: Om 6 is definitely the hardest bit, but that is also where codliver oil is a great resource. You are right that it takes a while to get the hang of it, however its not long before it starts to make sense !

My flat mate did make some more magic lasagne yesterday. My half has gone into the freezer in 4 portions of 750 cals per serving so a bit smaller than before . I'm doing a couple of more days of rib eye steak first - such a hardship !

Kentoldlady1 · Oct 12, 2017

CherryAA said:
Hmm clearly not explaining myself well totally back to front !
" In my opinion"
Omega 3 is GOOD _ though no doubt " within reason " like all things as per this article

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/fish-oil-friend-or-foe-201307126467

Omega 6
You need some Omega 6 but not that much - the best type is CLA - which comes, for example from grass fed beef.
You don't need polyunsaturated seed oils that are pro-inflammatory the proportion of which has grown dramatically in recent years - increasingly so with the vilification of saturated fat.

Omega 3 "neutralises" Omega 6 - so you can mitigate the effect of Omega 6 inflammation by increasing Omega 3- hence the availability of Omega 3 fish oil supplements.

Whether in practice Omega 3 supplements work - I seriously question . If in fact all it is is a soluble case that holds real codliver oil so you don't actually have to taste it , then yes should work. But a poor diet will produce a 30;1 ratio of Om 6 to Om 3 and VOLUME is important - as per the research above you want enough Om3 not a shedload of it to offset a shedload of Om 6.

However all too often supplements are touted to resolve particular issues and usually their benefits prove to be nothing or detrimental

In my view , the answer is to eat REAL FOODS that limit Omega 6 , and include more Omega 3 REAL foods as necessary to offset the Omega 6 . hence taking actual cod liver oil, and eating actual cod livers .

"In my opinion " every household provider should have something like cronometer on their PC or phone. Its free, its easy to use and within a few days you can easily understand what level of nutrients your family is getting from the food you are eating and start to make adjustments that will improve the health of your family. Nearly everyone has a set of scales and a thermometer, why not a blood glucose monitor and a nutrient program? We are all computer iterate to an extent today .

No one needs to go to the lengths I am doing, but one hour a week spent thinking about nutrition is probably the greatest gift any parent can give to their family.

Oops, just seen that I put the 3 and 6 backwards!!! I am worse than I thought! No, you did not , notexplain it well, I just mixed it up. And thanks for the explanation, helps a lot. Thanksx

Kentoldlady1 · Oct 12, 2017

Bluetit1802 said:
No, that is the wrong way round. Generally speaking, it is the ratio between the 2 omegas that needs to be as close to 1:1 as possible. Omega 3 is the good one. Most of the general population on bad diets have a ratio that is heavily weighted towards omega 6 - far too much O6 and insufficient O3. The wise idea is to reduce O6 and increase O3. If any supplements are to be considered, they need to be O3, although there are plenty of good O3 foods available to us.

Thanks, I am a complete idiot and wrote it the wrong way. I was obviously more confused than I thought!!

Chook · Oct 12, 2017

CherryAA said:
Here is an example of just how insidious Omega 6 oils are.

I have a friend M. We are making great progress in sorting out his health problems . M is a classic patient of a struggling NHS practice where there is little discussion about why or how, a lot of medication and little actual testing.

I have known M for a few years, and in all that time he has been an insulin dependent diabetic. I knew nothing about diabetes, so apart from saying, try and keep your diet healthy, I have not really had much to do with his health at all, until a year ago.

M knew I had diabetes , he saw what I did about it in terms of an LCHF diet , he was taking both metformin and insulin and he had been doing so for 14 years. His doctor had recently told him this wasn't working and that he would need to add more medication and even more insulin.

He told me that he experienced swings from low 3 to mid 20's on a regular basis and he had decided to copy me and try to come off the medication even if it was without his doctor's support. He's a very stubborn guy. Slowly he worked to reduce his insulin and reduce the metformin , with me keeping an eye on him and trying to make sure that he would not be left vulnerable if it didn't work.

One year later he is noticeably thinner round his middle , he has stopped taking insulin and stopped all other medications
his blood sugars now range between 5 and 10 so all in all a real poster child for the potential of an LCHF diet.

M has always suffered from bowel problems, and despite the overall improvements in health, he has continued to suffer , with recent investigations being is whether he is gluten intolerant or maybe coeliac.

As part of his healthy diet he has been eating fatty fish - mainly sardines, that seemed very sensible so I haven't queried it until today. when after a particularly bad episode this weekend, I figured it was time to see if I could figure out what might be happening.

Today I asked him to bring the can and show me what he did with it.

https://www.mysupermarket.co.uk/tes...cean_Rise_Sardines_in_Sunflower_Oil_125g.html
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/food/calories/541746143

Looks pretty good.
But then notice - these figures have been achieved by " draining" the can - i.e. getting rid of the Omega 6 sunflower oil the product is covered in.

Sardines in their natural state are 10g om 3 and 28g om 6 - ie 1:3 ratio , sardines in sunflower in my fitness pal "drained" are a similar ratio -

This is a classic reliable, healthy choice for someone looking to get a healthy dose of Omega 3 oils. On the back of the tin it says 5 g polyunsaturated, 5g mono - only 3g saturated - "my that looks healthy - nice balance of all the good stuff limited nasty saturated fats. "

Today I watched M prepare his food. He is not draining the can - after all "he's LCHF, HF is good for you - so why should I ?"

If he eats the can drained he gets 1.5g om 3,: 3.3 g Omega 6 so a 2:1 ratio with only 3.3g of inflammatory oils
If he eats the can undrained he gets 2.4 om3. and 10.3 Om 6 so a ratio of 4.25 to 1 and more than three times as much inflammatory oil .

M has actually been eating two cans, undrained - so 4.8 om 3 and 20.6 om 6 - that is for the " healthiest "component of his daily diet., an LCHF meal 68% fats but with a massive overdose of omega 6.

I don't know if that might be why he is suffering from all the inflammation he is, but as of today he so no longer eating quite so much sunflower oil ! I'll report back if that helps him.

Would the sardines in olive oil also from Tesco be better?

Bluetit1802 · Oct 12, 2017

CherryAA said:
The Om 3: Om 6 is definitely the hardest bit, but that is also where codliver oil is a great resource. You are right that it takes a while to get the hang of it,

If it is Omega 3 you are seeking, then fish oil is better than fish liver oil.
Fish oil is rich in omega-3 fatty acids such as the omega 3s EPA and DHA but doesn’t have much vitamin A or D.
Fish liver oil has less omega-3s but is very rich in vitamins A and D.
Cod liver oil contains less EPA and DHA (around 8% EPA and 10% DHA) than fish oil (at 18%EPA and 12%DHA).

So you takes your pick. Omega 3s or vits A and D.

DCUKMod · Oct 12, 2017

CherryAA said:
Here is an example of just how insidious Omega 6 oils are.

I have a friend M. We are making great progress in sorting out his health problems . M is a classic patient of a struggling NHS practice where there is little discussion about why or how, a lot of medication and little actual testing.

I have known M for a few years, and in all that time he has been an insulin dependent diabetic. I knew nothing about diabetes, so apart from saying, try and keep your diet healthy, I have not really had much to do with his health at all, until a year ago.

M knew I had diabetes , he saw what I did about it in terms of an LCHF diet , he was taking both metformin and insulin and he had been doing so for 14 years. His doctor had recently told him this wasn't working and that he would need to add more medication and even more insulin.

He told me that he experienced swings from low 3 to mid 20's on a regular basis and he had decided to copy me and try to come off the medication even if it was without his doctor's support. He's a very stubborn guy. Slowly he worked to reduce his insulin and reduce the metformin , with me keeping an eye on him and trying to make sure that he would not be left vulnerable if it didn't work.

One year later he is noticeably thinner round his middle , he has stopped taking insulin and stopped all other medications
his blood sugars now range between 5 and 10 so all in all a real poster child for the potential of an LCHF diet.

M has always suffered from bowel problems, and despite the overall improvements in health, he has continued to suffer , with recent investigations being is whether he is gluten intolerant or maybe coeliac.

As part of his healthy diet he has been eating fatty fish - mainly sardines, that seemed very sensible so I haven't queried it until today. when after a particularly bad episode this weekend, I figured it was time to see if I could figure out what might be happening.

Today I asked him to bring the can and show me what he did with it.

https://www.mysupermarket.co.uk/tes...cean_Rise_Sardines_in_Sunflower_Oil_125g.html
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/food/calories/541746143

Looks pretty good.
But then notice - these figures have been achieved by " draining" the can - i.e. getting rid of the Omega 6 sunflower oil the product is covered in.

Sardines in their natural state are 10g om 3 and 28g om 6 - ie 1:3 ratio , sardines in sunflower in my fitness pal "drained" are a similar ratio -

This is a classic reliable, healthy choice for someone looking to get a healthy dose of Omega 3 oils. On the back of the tin it says 5 g polyunsaturated, 5g mono - only 3g saturated - "my that looks healthy - nice balance of all the good stuff limited nasty saturated fats. "

Today I watched M prepare his food. He is not draining the can - after all "he's LCHF, HF is good for you - so why should I ?"

If he eats the can drained he gets 1.5g om 3,: 3.3 g Omega 6 so a 2:1 ratio with only 3.3g of inflammatory oils
If he eats the can undrained he gets 2.4 om3. and 10.3 Om 6 so a ratio of 4.25 to 1 and more than three times as much inflammatory oil .

M has actually been eating two cans, undrained - so 4.8 om 3 and 20.6 om 6 - that is for the " healthiest "component of his daily diet., an LCHF meal 68% fats but with a massive overdose of omega 6.

I don't know if that might be why he is suffering from all the inflammation he is, but as of today he so no longer eating quite so much sunflower oil ! I'll report back if that helps him.

Cherry - I don't know how close you are to your friend with the gastric issues, but I would be interested to know if his stools are pale, fatty and foul smelling. That can happen with s simple overload of fat. I had it a couple of years ago, when I needed to up my already high calorie intake, because I was doing very heavy, physical work in the heat and losing weight I needed to hang onto.

In pushing my calories up, I shunted up my fats with my mid-day meal. Realising what I had done, I merely redistributed the fats again more evenly (but sill at the almost 3000 calorie level) . My predicament improved.

So, I thik what I am saying is to check he isn't passing his personal fat tolerance threshold, per se, before getting too wound up on the specifics of the omegas.

CherryAA · Oct 12, 2017

DCUKMod said:
Cherry - I don't know how close you are to your friend with the gastric issues, but I would be interested to know if his stools are pale, fatty and foul smelling. That can happen with s simple overload of fat. I had it a couple of years ago, when I needed to up my already high calorie intake, because I was doing very heavy, physical work in the heat and losing weight I needed to hang onto.

In pushing my calories up, I shunted up my fats with my mid-day meal. Realising what I had done, I merely redistributed the fats again more evenly (but sill at the almost 3000 calorie level) . My predicament improved.

So, I thik what I am saying is to check he isn't passing his personal fat tolerance threshold, per se, before getting too wound up on the specifics of the omegas.

Thanks for that. I will find out but the problem has been the other way round and an inflamed colon .

DCUKMod · Oct 12, 2017

CherryAA said:
Thanks for that. I will find out but the problem has been the other way round and an inflamed colon .

Of course, it could be nothing like I experienced, but 2 cans of fish with all the oil is a pretty heavy weight dose. If he had already hade a bit of a dodgy system anyway, he might just have tripped from a colon range of "just about coping" to "not coping so well right now".

Just a thought.

GrantGam · Oct 12, 2017

CherryAA said:
Here is an example of just how insidious Omega 6 oils are.

I have a friend M. We are making great progress in sorting out his health problems

Maybe you can sort us all out, and yourself - once you're finished up with M? I'm first in line

GrantGam · Oct 12, 2017

DCUKMod said:
Of course, it could be nothing like I experienced, but 2 cans of fish with all the oil is a pretty heavy weight dose. If he had already hade a bit of a dodgy system anyway, he might just have tripped from a colon range of "just about coping" to "not coping so well right now".

Just a thought.

That much oil is pretty ropey full stop. The symptomatic reaction is not really worth discussing IMO.

Hotpepper20000 · Oct 12, 2017

@CherryAA I find your journey very interesting. Thank you for taking the time to post all your findings.
I have a question. Why did you choose to have your one meal in the evening?
Do you think anything would change if it was at noon?

CherryAA · Oct 12, 2017

Chook said:
Would the sardines in olive oil also from Tesco be better?

Olive oil is much better than sunflower oil - so yes !

CherryAA · Oct 12, 2017

Hotpepper20000 said:
@CherryAA I find your journey very interesting. Thank you for taking the time to post all your findings.
I have a question. Why did you choose to have your one meal in the evening?
Do you think anything would change if it was at noon?

I chose 4pm because it was the earliest time I be sure my morning liver dump has gone so by isolating it to eating after that I don't get the liver dump and food responses mixed up on my libre . My thinking is that by doing that I will be able to see over time if the liver dump is getting less and I am not asking my body to deal with both the glucose it makes itself and that I put into at the same time. My thinking was that "maybe" that reduces the total insulin through put.

On the other hand the converse might apply as well. - i.e. if you eat at the same time s you are dumping glucose into your blood stream, then maybe only one lot of insulin gets produces so its works faster !

I have no clue which is better or if it matters at all.

For me, this way of eating is just like any other - choose a way that works for you if that's 12.00 then give it a go ! and see

CherryAA · Oct 12, 2017

GrantGam said:
Maybe you can sort us all out, and yourself - once you're finished up with M? I'm first in line

Well If I could you would be very welcome in my queue - ........ (I'm the first on the list lol)

Ultimately M is sorting himself out , very bravely and its amazing that he has managed to get off insulin after 14 years.
He's doing a marvellous job, my role is only to try and look into why some other things might help him more. He did the coming off insulin thing all on his own and without any support at all from the medical profession who basically refused to provide him with any of the data he needed to know if for example his pancreas was still working or not. He decided to work on the assumption it was until proved otherwise. I think that's incredibly brave.

Hotpepper20000 · Oct 12, 2017

CherryAA said:
I chose 4pm because it was the earliest time I be sure my morning liver dump has gone so by isolating it to eating after that I don't get the liver dump and food responses mixed up on my libre . My thinking is that by doing that I will be able to see over time if the liver dump is getting less and I am not asking my body to deal with both the glucose it makes itself and that I put into at the same time. My thinking was that "maybe" that reduces the total insulin through put.

On the other hand the converse might apply as well. - i.e. if you eat at the same time s you are dumping glucose into your blood stream, then maybe only one lot of insulin gets produces so its works faster !

I have no clue which is better or if it matters at all.

For me, this way of eating is just like any other - choose a way that works for you if that's 12.00 then give it a go ! and see

Thank you. I just wanted to know your thought process.

CherryAA · Oct 12, 2017

GrantGam said:
That much oil is pretty ropey full stop. The symptomatic reaction is not really worth discussing IMO.

I agree entirely that its ropey, Having said that - he's an active guy, the foods did come out at around 65% fat overall so on the surface it "looked "like the LCHF he has now read a lot about. His doctor told him sardines were a good thing so he had no idea what he was doing was too much.

I think it illustrates how easy it is to slightly miss the point as to what LCHF means in practice. and how easy it is to end up with more om 6 in your diet than you thought you were.

My personal hypothesis - T2 - Low insulin Diet

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