Newbie with Insulin Resistance, on the cusp of being full T2D and having huge diabetic Neuropathy symptoms

djp23

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Hello to everyone. Went to my doctor as I was having pains, pins and needles, heart palpitations and thought I might have a B12 deficiency.
I'm underweight and have a really good diet and hardly drink alcohol. I was amazed that I have Fatty liver and now Im Pre diabetic.......Everything I read is about regaining your health by diet, such as losing weight and going low carb/zero sugar. The problem is apart from cutting out the carbs, my diet is really good. I definitely do NOT want to lose weight. Is there any Thin peeps out there who can offer any advice? Oh and I'm adopted and so do not know about any family history of T2D or fatty liver and I'm of Asian/African/Arabic descent according to Ancestry International! Thank you for reading.
 

KennyA

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Hi - I was in much the same situation as you from about 2010 onwards. Diabetic symptoms, blood glucose out of normal range, but told "not diabetic". I had ten years of pain and discomfort that could have been avoided.... so my view is that diabetic symptoms equals diabetes. Diagnosis at HbA1c of 48+ is supposed to be the fallback, but is instead used as the only diagnostic tool by the NHS.

Anyway - when you say you have a "good diet" do you mean you eat the recommended high carb "Eatwell Plate"? That is what I was doing when I became diabetic. So - what you think of as "a good diet" might have contributed to you becoming T2 in the first place. It did for me. What exactly do you eat?

I reduced carb to around 20g/day in December 2019 and my BG was in normal range by April 2020. I subsequently lost around 90lbs that I'd acquired since 2010, but that happened in the years after BG became normal. I'm where I want to be now and am maintaining my weight while still on 20g carb. Increasing my dietary fat intake has done that.
 
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djp23

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Hi - I was in much the same situation as you from about 2010 onwards. Diabetic symptoms, blood glucose out of normal range, but told "not diabetic". I had ten years of pain and discomfort that could have been avoided.... so my view is that diabetic symptoms equals diabetes. Diagnosis at HbA1c of 48+ is supposed to be the fallback, but is instead used as the only diagnostic tool by the NHS.

Anyway - when you say you have a "good diet" do you mean you eat the recommended high carb "Eatwell Plate"? That is what I was doing when I became diabetic. So - what you think of as "a good diet" might have contributed to you becoming T2 in the first place. It did for me. What exactly do you eat?

I reduced carb to around 20g/day in December 2019 and my BG was in normal range by April 2020. I subsequently lost around 90lbs that I'd acquired since 2010, but that happened in the years after BG became normal. I'm where I want to be now and am maintaining my weight while still on 20g carb. Increasing my dietary fat intake has done that.
Thank you for this replying and for the valuable information. Yes I was on the "Eatwell plate" type diet. I'm now following a low carb, good fats diet and trying to NOT escalate to full T2D. I'm also doing 18/6 Intermittent fasting. My doctors have been terrible as I've checked my records and have been borderline since 2019 with Fatty liver and because I don't look sick or diabetic and I move a lot. Iv been ignored. I have no idea if I'm helping or hindering my health but I'm giving it a try. As a long standing member and T2D, I'm open to all advice and thank you once again.
 
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KennyA

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I do think there are some/many of us who cannot tolerate carbs in the quantities recommended in the "official" diet. And there are those of us who cannot tolerate even a marginally raised BG (in HbA1c terms). But healthcare systems like most other stuff work to the 80/20 rule - "good enough for four in five is good enough".
 

Melgar

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Hello to everyone. Went to my doctor as I was having pains, pins and needles, heart palpitations and thought I might have a B12 deficiency.
I'm underweight and have a really good diet and hardly drink alcohol. I was amazed that I have Fatty liver and now Im Pre diabetic.......Everything I read is about regaining your health by diet, such as losing weight and going low carb/zero sugar. The problem is apart from cutting out the carbs, my diet is really good. I definitely do NOT want to lose weight. Is there any Thin peeps out there who can offer any advice? Oh and I'm adopted and so do not know about any family history of T2D or fatty liver and I'm of Asian/African/Arabic descent according to Ancestry International! Thank you for reading.
Did you have tests that pointed to NAFLD? It’s also called Metabolic dysfunction-associated steatotic liver disease or MASLD. The Reasons for developing it are not straight forward. Children can sometimes get it. As the name suggests it is associated with metabolic syndrome. Components relating to metabolic syndrome compose of excess weight, high triglycerides or LDL cholesterol, T2DM , high blood pressure and I would add chronic inflammation.
Do you have high triglycerides? Sometimes people have a genetic predisposition for high lipids. In this instance it has nothing to do with diet. I chose to go on statins to reduce my LDL’s, however my Triglycerides are very low. It can also be associated with several other conditions : polycystic ovary syndrome , sleep apnea ,and hypothyroidism. Have they tested for any of those conditions?

If none of those associated conditions apply then they suggest losing weight, but as you are under weight this may not apply, increasing exercise, reduction in alcohol, but if you don’t drink then this would not apply either, and reduction in Triglycerides, through meds like statins, reducing blood pressure through BP meds or alternatively , reducing your carb intake through very low carb diets. Going on a very low carb diet may help you, but losing weight when you don’t have it to lose can cause it’s own set of problems. I’m also thin, and my weight drops off very easily, so you may have to monitor your weight while cutting down on carbs. We are all different and our bodily response to diets like keto is unique to the person. Obviously none of the above constitutes medical advice as it goes against forum rules.
 

djp23

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8
Type of diabetes
Prediabetes
Treatment type
Diet only
Did you have tests that pointed to NAFLD? It’s also called Metabolic dysfunction-associated steatotic liver disease or MASLD. The Reasons for developing it are not straight forward. Children can sometimes get it. As the name suggests it is associated with metabolic syndrome. Components relating to metabolic syndrome compose of excess weight, high triglycerides or LDL cholesterol, T2DM , high blood pressure and I would add chronic inflammation.
Do you have high triglycerides? Sometimes people have a genetic predisposition for high lipids. In this instance it has nothing to do with diet. I chose to go on statins to reduce my LDL’s, however my Triglycerides are very low. It can also be associated with several other conditions : polycystic ovary syndrome , sleep apnea ,and hypothyroidism. Have they tested for any of those conditions?

If none of those associated conditions apply then they suggest losing weight, but as you are under weight this may not apply, increasing exercise, reduction in alcohol, but if you don’t drink then this would not apply either, and reduction in Triglycerides, through meds like statins, reducing blood pressure through BP meds or alternatively , reducing your carb intake through very low carb diets. Going on a very low carb diet may help you, but losing weight when you don’t have it to lose can cause it’s own set of problems. I’m also thin, and my weight drops off very easily, so you may have to monitor your weight while cutting down on carbs. We are all different and our bodily response to diets like keto is unique to the person. Obviously none of the above constitutes medical advice as it goes against forum rules.
I have no idea why I have fatty liver, and the docs don't either. I have blood test figures that seem to be within range, but what seems acceptable for one body may not be for another. The one size fits all comes to mind! The Neuropathy has been going on for 7 months now and the fatty liver for 5 years. For those 5 years I was told its nothing to worry about as a lot of people have it. I was enjoying a glass of red now and again and eating carbs and puddings, now I realise that Fatty liver IS a big deal! So when the Neuropathy began, I had to beg to be tested for Insulin Resistance as I don't fit any of the criteria for having diabetes. So here I am now, I'm due to see the doctor in 2 weeks as they don't think its urgent enough to be seen before. I have no genetic history to call on........ So I'm taking control of my own health and NOT listening to advice so doggedly. Iv began IF and low carb and NO sugars, NO alcohol and Meditation. Thank you so much for the reply and taking the time to make suggestions.
 

Melgar

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@djp23 Actually, MASLD does include a benign condition called steatotic liver disease. Not that you want that either. Obviously listen to your Drs, but reducing your carb intake may well reduce your blood sugars, your Triglycerides and any insulin resistance you may have. Technically, NAFLD may be related to a liver that is insulin resistant. Meaning your cells are resistant to the effects of insulin. Insulin is the hormone that helps control blood sugars. Taking steps to reduce these metabolic issues, like reducing your carb intake, may reduce your fatty liver. @Chris24Main has a long personal blog on this site relating, in part, to NAFLD. Globally it is a common disease affecting around 32% of the global population and is increasing. I do hope you get answers.

Here are a couple of links you may find useful.
https://www.merckmanuals.com/en-ca/...ic-dysfunction-associated-liver-disease-masld

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articl...ses a spectrum ranging,afflicted by NAFLD [3].
 
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Chris24Main

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@djp23 - Hi, and welcome to the forum.

You may or may not get something out of reading my post as mentioned above - initially I had much the same question - I'm at my ideal weight, I'm fit; how on earth can I have hit this blood sugar threshold, and where is the borderline between non-alcoholic fatty liver and diabetes - oh, and what the hell is insulin resistance really?

I now know a whole bunch more, but have many more questions than I have answers, and one thing that repeats over and over is that everyone is different, so what may be an answer for me, may not be for you.

Metabolic syndrome (which used to be called insulin resistance syndrome, so there's that association for a start) is worth just looking at, because it focusses on: -
Waist circumference (really a measure of fat distributed around the central organs, or viscera, rather than under the skin around the body)
Blood glucose (being too high, this obviously overlaps with diabetes)
Blood pressure (being too high - leading to even greater risk of cardio-vascular problems)
High blood triglycerides (in your serum lipid panel, a measure of the amount of fat particles in the fat transport system - clearly a connection with visceral fat)
Low blood HDL (this is a little confusing, and I'll skip the detail, but it's a measure of what is often called "good cholesterol" and within this set of results, low just means that your blood lipids (fats) are out of balance - again, more of a measure that something is not right in the fat surrounding your liver.

Now - given the role that your liver has in regulating glucose - you can see that all of that has a direct link to your liver being under some kind of stress...

The good news is that your liver is a pretty remarkable organ, and all the things you have committed to doing are (in my humble view) the best things you can be doing.

Let me lay out my simplistic view:
You eat food. Food is comprised of Carbs, Fat and Protein
Fat and Protein are digested in the intestine, simple carbs are digested in the stomach. Complex carbs are either digested in the intestine or not at all.
Everything comes back to the liver.
If there are simple carbs in the food, that will trigger insulin (insulin is of course needed to control blood glucose, but that's only it's most famous role, it's really about energy).
Because insulin is high, your liver is under instruction to pack everything it can into storage - sugar is turned into storable fat, fat is turned into storable fat, and even excess protein is turned into storable fat.

Read that last sentence over and over until you understand that this is the key piece of information that nobody has ever told you, and why diets don't work, and why the Eatwell approach brings us to where we are.

Because insulin is high, all your fat which is already in storage must stay there, and you are only able to burn glucose for energy, which is why you get hungry again so soon.

Because insulin is high, over time you need more of it to have the same effect, leading to insulin resistance, and eventually diabetes T2.

Because insulin is high, and every cell has a role with insulin, but not all develop resistance, now that function is on over-speed, disrupting all sorts of fine-tuned hormonal effects.

And because insulin is high, the liver is under orders to store as much of the fat within and around itself, which causes the fat storage cells to expand, leading them to become over-filled, where they leak out the free fatty-acids and essentially call out for help (inflammation).

So - now you have too much glucose and fat in your blood, and where glucose goes, more water goes, and now you have too much volume of fluid in your blood vessels, leading to too much pressure...

.. and so on, and believe me, that's the simple version.

So - what to do?
Give the liver a break.

If you start again:
You do not eat food. Your liver gets a break, and insulin drops.
You start to mobilise fats to burn for energy, and start burning it.
You start to create Ketones to fuel your brain
Your start to clean up old and broken stuff in your cells.

Or:
You eat foods with close to zero carbs.
Fat and Protein are absorbed in the intestine.
Turns out we are really quite efficient at digesting fat and protein together. It all goes to the liver.
Because insulin is low, your liver is under instruction to keep the fats recycling from storage to burning.
Because insulin is low, your liver will create ketones to fuel your brain.
Because insulin is low, your liver will create glucose whenever you need it.
Because insulin is low, your hormonal response to the food is to feel full.

The proportion of your time that you spend eating to not-eating is simply intermittent fasting, but the more time you spend not-eating, the more of a break your liver gets. It uses its own stores first, and so relatively quickly (weeks) you can make a significant difference to the health of your liver and your blood glucose levels - then keep going and you can reverse NAFLD, and T2DM and any of the chronic illnesses that are the result of chronic insulin resistance (at least, that's what I'm doing, and is the only way I have of making sense of all the case studies and personal experiences I've seen over the last year - exactly what you do and exactly the experience you have will be totally personal, but the underlying mechanism is pretty simple - give your liver a break).

None of this relies on counting or cutting calories - and you should strive for full nutrition in whatever eating window and regime works for you. Exercise is great for all sorts of reasons, but nothing beats giving your liver a break.

At least in my personal experience.
But - it sounds like you are doing all of this anyway - this entire wall-o-text is simply to encourage you that (again, only in my humble opinion) you are doing all the right things.
 

Chris24Main

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Just to touch on the "should I lose weight" question, in my case, (and sounds like this may ring true for you - but as @Melgar points out; you absolutely should not take any of this as advice to do anything) ...

There is without doubt a connection between obesity and diabetes T2 - but at least to me, I see it as another consequence of insulin resistance; in the same set of dietary conditions, one person may be better suited to exposure to high insulin than another - because of genetics - one may simply be better at transporting and storing fat away from the central area.

One of the key factors which is uniquely personal - is "how many fat storage cells do I have" - we, it seems, don't replace fat storage cells very quickly, we tend to have the same total number through our whole lives, and the more we have, the smaller each one will be for a given amount of fat that needs to be stored.

You mention Asian descent - and this is one of the big genetic factors. There is a spectrum of the number of fat cells that varies according to race. South East Asians (in the big number statistical sense) have the fewest. You mention many origins, so this may not even apply, I only offer as info; but for any given body weight, the less fat storage cells you have, the more each one has swollen to cope.

Coming back to the liver - this also is why you can appear slim, yet suffer from NAFLD. It's also why liposuction is actually a very bad idea, but I digress...

Should you lose weight? - well, in the broad sense - you don't need to, if all the dangerous weight is around your liver. It's just that for many people, the more effective strategy is to lose weight overall, which will result in some of that weight around the liver also being lost. Any strategy that loses weight will work.

Right? but if you are targeting your liver, by intermittent fasting and significant carb reduction - then you also lose weight first from your liver, and then from around your liver, simply because it's at the centre of all the action. So (at least this was my thinking) - I can target my liver without losing overall weight.

If you are concerned about the whole body situation, then I would totally recommend getting a set of scales that can show body composition - I use a set that gives me total weight, but also fat mass, muscle mass, water and bone, but also gives me an "index" of visceral fat - who knows what it really means, but I can track that number from 4.3 when I started, and down to the steady 3.7 it is now. I couldn't tell you what 3.7 actually means, but I know that it's a warning sign if I go up to 3.9, and I can do something to correct. - all at the same time as being confident that I'm not losing any muscle mass.
 

Rosie9876

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Hello to everyone. Went to my doctor as I was having pains, pins and needles, heart palpitations and thought I might have a B12 deficiency.
I'm underweight and have a really good diet and hardly drink alcohol. I was amazed that I have Fatty liver and now Im Pre diabetic.......Everything I read is about regaining your health by diet, such as losing weight and going low carb/zero sugar. The problem is apart from cutting out the carbs, my diet is really good. I definitely do NOT want to lose weight. Is there any Thin peeps out there who can offer any advice? Oh and I'm adopted and so do not know about any family history of T2D or fatty liver and I'm of Asian/African/Arabic descent according to Ancestry International! Thank you for reading.
I was a thin peep when diagnosed with T2D. As far as I recall, I didn't have any symptoms apart from tiredness, which I attributed to work and jetlag. In those days, the advice was to cut out sugar and have low-fat frequent small meals with carbs. I was put onto Metformin, and got worse and worse, and gained weight.. I now think what it was is I didn't have a lot of fat cells to store excess carbs eaten, so it went to visceral fat. Now I've cut down on carbs - not eliminated - and I'm on intermittent fasting, but not specifically reducing calories. It's worked for me, I've lost about 3 kilos over 4 months and my A1c is way down. But I guess everyone has to find out what works for them.
 

Elmas

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Hello to everyone. Went to my doctor as I was having pains, pins and needles, heart palpitations and thought I might have a B12 deficiency.
I'm underweight and have a really good diet and hardly drink alcohol. I was amazed that I have Fatty liver and now Im Pre diabetic.......Everything I read is about regaining your health by diet, such as losing weight and going low carb/zero sugar. The problem is apart from cutting out the carbs, my diet is really good. I definitely do NOT want to lose weight. Is there any Thin peeps out there who can offer any advice? Oh and I'm adopted and so do not know about any family history of T2D or fatty liver and I'm of Asian/African/Arabic descent according to Ancestry International! Thank you for reading.
A great way to put on weight in a healthy way is by building your muscle mass. When people talk about wanting to lose weight, they often mean they want to shed fat. After all, losing just any weight isn't always the answer—in that were the case just chop off a leg and there to go! Building muscle is really about body composition, which is a fascinating topic you might want to check out.

To increase your muscle, you need 2 things: 1. Focus on boosting your protein and healthy fat intake—this is especially important if you’re cutting down on carbs. 2. Strength training. The more you lift, the hungrier you’ll get for protein, which in turn supports muscle growth, creating a positive cycle of cravings and gains.

And speaking of protein, meat is one of the best sources! If you haven’t already, you might want to check out Dr. Bernstein’s book “Diabetes Solution” for some great insights.

Regarding fatty liver, the lower carb intake should help a bunch, specially if you limit sugar, fructose and seed oils.
 
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djp23

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Type of diabetes
Prediabetes
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Diet only
A great way to put on weight in a healthy way is by building your muscle mass. When people talk about wanting to lose weight, they often mean they want to shed fat. After all, losing just any weight isn't always the answer—in that were the case just chop off a leg and there to go! Building muscle is really about body composition, which is a fascinating topic you might want to check out.

To increase your muscle, you need 2 things: 1. Focus on boosting your protein and healthy fat intake—this is especially important if you’re cutting down on carbs. 2. Strength training. The more you lift, the hungrier you’ll get for protein, which in turn supports muscle growth, creating a positive cycle of cravings and gains.

And speaking of protein, meat is one of the best sources! If you haven’t already, you might want to check out Dr. Bernstein’s book “Diabetes Solution” for some great insights.

Regarding fatty liver, the lower carb intake should help a bunch, specially if you limit sugar, fructose and seed oils.
Thank you for this very informative reply. I have now got weights and do some resistance training each day. Iv struggled to eat more meat but I am on target for increasing my protein. I am practically zero sugar now, but finding resisting my home made bread that I make for hubby very hard to resist. But I am doing it! I don't eat seed oils. I cook with avocado oil and take 30mls of organic E V Olive oil daily (which tastes disgusting, I cant lie). Sadly my neuropathy is getting painful and feels like its creeping all around my body. No cure apparently but Il give Keto a chance to work alongside 18/6 fasting. Thank you again for your time.
 
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AndBreathe

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Hello to everyone. Went to my doctor as I was having pains, pins and needles, heart palpitations and thought I might have a B12 deficiency.
I'm underweight and have a really good diet and hardly drink alcohol. I was amazed that I have Fatty liver and now Im Pre diabetic.......Everything I read is about regaining your health by diet, such as losing weight and going low carb/zero sugar. The problem is apart from cutting out the carbs, my diet is really good. I definitely do NOT want to lose weight. Is there any Thin peeps out there who can offer any advice? Oh and I'm adopted and so do not know about any family history of T2D or fatty liver and I'm of Asian/African/Arabic descent according to Ancestry International! Thank you for reading.
Forgive me: I haven't read every post in the thread, but have your results been reviewed in line with your ethnic heritage? The reason I ask is certain ethnic groups have lower tolerances/diagnostic levels to certain conditions, and for some that includes (particularly) T2 diabetes. For instance South Asian folks have lower targets for BMI, waist measurements and diagnostic A1cs.
 

djp23

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Prediabetes
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Diet only
Good evening, I don't think my doctors are bothered about the ethnic heritage......unless its a direct link. It seems to me that being adopted, the history of any disease is ignored. But armed with the extra knowledge you have gifted on here, Il certainly raise it next time I see a doctor. Thank you.
 

Elmas

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Messages
11
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Pump
Thank you for this very informative reply. I have now got weights and do some resistance training each day. Iv struggled to eat more meat but I am on target for increasing my protein. I am practically zero sugar now, but finding resisting my home made bread that I make for hubby very hard to resist. But I am doing it! I don't eat seed oils. I cook with avocado oil and take 30mls of organic E V Olive oil daily (which tastes disgusting, I cant lie). Sadly my neuropathy is getting painful and feels like its creeping all around my body. No cure apparently but Il give Keto a chance to work alongside 18/6 fasting. Thank you again for your time.
Good job! Regarding the neuropathy pain, I’ve read that that could happen when you start to normalize your bg and the nerves start to work again. If you’re consistent with your bg control, the pain should go away but by bit. I’ll see if I can find where I read it. Keep up the good work!
 
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Elmas

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Type 1
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Good job! Regarding the neuropathy pain, I’ve read that that could happen when you start to normalize your bg and the nerves start to work again. If you’re consistent with your bg control, the pain should go away but by bit. I’ll see if I can find where I read it. Keep up the good work!
Btw, I did post a screen shot from Dr. Bernstein's book about how you can get pain once the nerves begin to heal, but it got rejected because I'm a newbie. Unfortunately I can't copy and paste from the kindle. Let's see if I can find it somewhere else.
 
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djp23

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Type of diabetes
Prediabetes
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Btw, I did post a screen shot from Dr. Bernstein's book about how you can get pain once the nerves begin to heal, but it got rejected because I'm a newbie. Unfortunately I can't copy and paste from the kindle. Let's see if I can find it somewhere else.

Foot neuropathy and Dr. Bernstein​

  • Thread starterPaulWright
  • Start DateOct 3, 2018
  • Oct 3, 2018 Here is the thread, I found it after a search, thank you so much and its given me tremendous hope!
 
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