Newcastle diet starting Monday, done it once who gonna join me on my journey??

[Pipp]

Hi Pip

So with our collective experience this may be doable.

It is worth spending time getting the question right and then agreeing a methodology and methods. Should we see if Prof T has any insights to offer. If we can dovetail this into his work that may give it more traction.

I admire your enthusiasm. I am interested, but not as able or motivated as you at the moment. Happy to give opinion, and input. Your baby, I will rock it sometimes. Run any ideas by me, and possibly others too.

 

[Steve50]

I also think there may be a bit of a Hawthorn effect. That is - some participants may be motivated to take part in a study because doing so may provide motivation to keep weight off.

 

[Bewildered]

I also think there may be a bit of a Hawthorn effect. That is - some participants may be motivated to take part in a study because doing so may provide motivation to keep weight off.

Wow that just blew me back to my A level's!!! "Hawthorn effect."

 

[Bewildered]

Hi B

I reached a stage in weight loss too when I could not tolerate the meds. So - no answers - but good q Euston. It is not really appropriate for any of us to advise other than your DN or Dr.

But I did wonder in low med tolerance was a sign of being below my personal fat threshold!

I recall the DN saying (when i was first prescribed) that if 2g is not tolerated to reduce to 1.5g, think I am going to have to do that tonight … plan to call the GP as he's the one who is supporting me (too afraid to ask the DN as she is a bit scary )

 

[Living-by-the-beach]

I recall the DN saying (when i was first prescribed) that if 2g is not tolerated to reduce to 1.5g, think I am going to have to do that tonight … plan to call the GP as he's the one who is supporting me (too afraid to ask the DN as she is a bit scary )

@Bewildered

You're in better shape than me. I'm doing all off my own bat. My doc isn't too thrilled about Professor Taylor ("& his quackery") as he might say. He just wants me sick but well enough to come in every 3-4 months for another checkup..

One more thing that has come to my attention too is that both @Pipp & @RobOwen have BMIs in excess of 25 but are both coming up with non-diabetic numbers. My BMI is about 23 now and I am still coming up with diabetic numbers. While Pipp has mentioned that there could be a miriad of reasons why someone is still diabetic might a good question to be asked of us all is that @Steve50 is there a way to see if its the rapidity of the ND weigh loss is better than the "Gradual (traditional) weight loss" that puts one earlier into non-diabetic numbers? This might be question that Professor Taylor wants answered? Thinking out loud by the beach?!?! ?

Personally I'd have preferred if my body had started giving me non-diabetic numbers at around a BMI of 24. I am not 100% convinced it is really healthy to have a BMI of low 20's..

 

[Pipp]

I also think there may be a bit of a Hawthorn effect. That is - some participants may be motivated to take part in a study because doing so may provide motivation to keep weight off.

Think I would do that.

 

[Living-by-the-beach]

I'm not sure I can stick to the ND. I didn't have my first shake till 1PM with lashings of black coffee before that so 2 cals / cup of black coffee comes to almost nada. So at that point I'd had about 230-250 calories. I then went on a 15 mile ride that I've since worked out had me effectively consuming my own muscle http://caloriesburnedhq.com/calories-burned-biking I used about 800+ calories doing the ride to the end of my avatar. So I had cauliflower + steak for dinner. One thing I did notice was that on the ride back from the 1/2 way point my feet felt very good very quickly..So maybe one of these days my FBGs will plummet like a stone? Who knows?

 

[Steve50]

Hi LBB

Sounds like you have adapted the NP. I don't recall protein being allowed - but if you are in fact burning muscle, this may be necessary for you. I am not one to advise on how we adapt the NP - I did it myself. However, I did not do so much exercise - especially not muscle building. But I did move a lot more as weight started to shift. I think for me it was an energy conservation issue (ever the environmentalist!).

What I think is really hard about the NP is when we 'feel' deprived. We are in fact depriving our bodies of the amount of calories we would expect to burn in a day - and that plays tricks on our mind. We look for ways to justify taking on those missing calories. It is as much a mental exercise as it is a physical one. The body naturally resists burning up the reserve energy supply - the very fat we are trying to lose. I obsessed - and used this blog to dump loads of anxieties and frustrations. I'm sure now as a byproduct of deprivation. It felt like I was pushing back on my bodies natural process - switching over to an 'emergency' energy source - and my body did not like it one bit. I think that if I had placed greater physical demands on myself, drawing even more on the emergency energy source, my body and mind would have found the NP even harder.

For me, it was finding the balance between diet and exercise. Sorry for stating the bleeding obvious. I have not been very physical since my military days of being a gym junkie. I resisted muscle building or overly strenuous exercise while on the ND (and since as it happens ).

What would have been helpful is if the rewards were forthcoming. They do come, but in the shortened time-frames our concentrated minds are working within, we don't see the progress. But it is there! Averages over the week (i.e. weight, fasting blood, BMI) are better indications than daily measurements.

Only you can decide if the NP is for you - but we are hear to listen to your frustrations and share our experience if it helps!

 

[brettsza]

Hi @Steve50 how are your readings like fasting and pp

 

[Steve50]

Hi @Steve50 how are your readings like fasting and pp

Hi Brettsza

I'm getting 5.7's at the moment - fasting. Have not measured PP - running out of test strips.

 

[Wildrover]

LLB

I think you could be on to something there, ( # 945 ) I remember way back at the start of this thread that Steve mentioned that Prof Taylor said that it was the rapid and sudden loss of weight ( as with Bariatric Surgery ) that was the key to the success of the ND/ NP, And my point that started this discussion off, was that there was no direct thread that was there to help people who have been recently diagnosed T2, I for one have been diagnosed for over 4 years, yet knew nothing about Diabetes, and was always looking around this site, but never took diabetes seriously, IT WAS ONLY WHEN I CAME ACROSS THIS THREAD that I became more informed, Also, ( and suspect ) that like some other people doing the ND, I made the mistake of "cheating "at week one by assuming that it was ok to have a salad for dinner with a lot of trimmings, big mistake !!! Should've done what Steve and Biretza did, Slimfast and water, and nothing else, I think that that would have given me the sudden loss and SHOCKED the system, instead in my case it was more gradual, my figures are now 5s and 6s, never seen a 4, yet I've lost 26 lbs,
So my original thinking was if there was a thread that would give recently diagnosed T2s the head start to reverse diabetes by having all the knowledge available in one place, I think that would be invaluable, Because, I for one when first diagnosed, never took it seriously, Had I known then what I know now, maybe I could've reversed it, but it's now 5 years further down the line,
Also a thread along those lines could also help people like Prof Taylor because there would be a large amount of info on that thread, He might even monitor it and pick up snippets of information helpful to his research, The thread as Steve suggests could be run by ex ND'ers with no input from "Outsiders" ( so as not to confuse the issue )
As I've said before, it was only when I came across this thread 4-5 months ago that I really started to learn about Diabetes and all because of the wealth of knowledge here, people like @ Gerodie90 , @ JTL, @ Glitterbritches, @ Brettza, to name but a few,
Anyway ramble over, ; zipped

 

[AndBreathe]

I'm not sure I can stick to the ND. I didn't have my first shake till 1PM with lashings of black coffee before that so 2 cals / cup of black coffee comes to almost nada. So at that point I'd had about 230-250 calories. I then went on a 15 mile ride that I've since worked out had me effectively consuming my own muscle http://caloriesburnedhq.com/calories-burned-biking I used about 800+ calories doing the ride to the end of my avatar. So I had cauliflower + steak for dinner. One thing I did notice was that on the ride back from the 1/2 way point my feet felt very good very quickly..So maybe one of these days my FBGs will plummet like a stone? Who knows?

LBB - Can I suggest you invest a little time reading @Andrew Colvin 's thread where he describes his journey with T2?

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/got-my-first-3-month-hba1c-results-this-morning.55719/

He also has another thread where he outline his post transformation adjustment to his normalised way of eating.

Vis-a-vis the detail of the ND; In his article dated January 2013, Professor Taylor comments:

".... In this, it is explained that a very low energy diet was chosen in the research study to mimic the effects of gastric bypass surgery. However, steady but substantial weight loss achieved by reducing portion size was recommended as the preferred method. The focus was on the need to achieve substantial and sustainable weight loss through the best approach for that individual..... "

http://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/diabetes/documents/CounterpointReflections.pdf

This is in the paragraph headed "Introduction".

Personally, I do not believe the shock of the brutally reduced calorie meal replacement regime is essential or even materially significant, but I do believe that the fast results of the brutal approach are likely to be significantly motivational.

 

[Wildrover]

Like it AB
Will go with that, I thought it was the sudden loss, but if the " learned one " Prof Taylor, says " steady but substantial weight loss is the answer" then ..... So be it

 

[AndBreathe]

Like it AB
Will go with that, I thought it was the sudden loss, but if the " learned one " Prof Taylor, says " steady but substantial weight loss is the answer" then ..... So be it

I think he is saying either way is fine. It's whatever suits the individual, and he does acknowledge (although not in this paper) that the ND isn't for everyone because of it's brutality, lifestyle and social ramifications.

Good luck with whatever you try. Again, if you haven't read it, @Andrew Colvin 's threads are extremely informative. He achieved his desired result using real, proper food, whilst doing plenty of exercise and working full time.

 

[Living-by-the-beach]

LBB - Can I suggest you invest a little time reading @Andrew Colvin 's thread where he describes his journey with T2?

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/got-my-first-3-month-hba1c-results-this-morning.55719/

He also has another thread where he outline his post transformation adjustment to his normalised way of eating.

Vis-a-vis the detail of the ND; In his article dated January 2013, Professor Taylor comments:

".... In this, it is explained that a very low energy diet was chosen in the research study to mimic the effects of gastric bypass surgery. However, steady but substantial weight loss achieved by reducing portion size was recommended as the preferred method. The focus was on the need to achieve substantial and sustainable weight loss through the best approach for that individual..... "

http://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/diabetes/documents/CounterpointReflections.pdf

This is in the paragraph headed "Introduction".

Personally, I do not believe the shock of the brutally reduced calorie meal replacement regime is essential or even materially significant, but I do believe that the fast results of the brutal approach are likely to be significantly motivational.

I want to thank everyone who has chimed in on my recent post with opinions. I am serious about putting my T2 into remission Yet I also sense that I am living somewhat in the unknown. Some folks still have a BMI north of 25 and are now in T2DM remission and are working off to a BMI of say 24 or so. Yet with my BMI now at 23 and sketchy numbers on my FBGs I am very concerned if the actual path I chose, which was slow and steady weight loss was the right move? While I'll not give up the ground already attained, if I had a do-over @ a BMI of 27 I might have gone ND / NP. Then, if with that shock to the system, when I got a BMI of 25 I'd have cleared the pancreas and liver of the issues and it would then be my choice to decide where I'd like to finish my NP ND at (say) a BMI of 24. Now I am at a BMI of 23 and still not seeing the end in sight..This is the real concern as far as It faces me right now. As a bit of background I've actually lost close on 26% of my body weight or 63lbs without becoming un-diabetic yet.

Does this make more sense?

 

[Steve50]

We seem to keep coming back to this discussion of rapid vs gradual weight loss.

The 'experts' offer the following critiques of the Melbourne University study - (my Alma Mata )
http://www.sciencemediacentre.org/e...-weight-loss-and-long-term-weight-management/

In summary -
1 - rapid weight loss does not lead to faster weight regain
2 - rapid weight loss can be a better approach because more people reach their target
3 - low energy meal replacement should be part of NHS treatment
4 - rapid weight loss can boost motivation because rewards appear quickly
5 - on rapid weight loss hunger is suppressed through ketones (while a VLCD will not result in ketoacidosis, there is an elevated risk with diabetics)
6 - slower weight loss loses less muscle weight
7 - VLCD's are short on nutrients - so supplements are needed
8 - more research is needed into the hormone drivers that promote weight gain after the diet

Also;
http://www.news-medical.net/news/20100715/Rapid-weight-loss-the-best-Study.aspx
9 - net weight loss after one year is higher after 12 months for those with a higher initial weight loss

So - what about Beta cell repair? (hence T2 reversal)
http://www.diabetesselfmanagement.com/blog/can-beta-cells-be-healed/
10 - People with T2 recover Beta cell function all the time
11 - Beta cells exposed to high glucose environments lose function rapidly, but in a low glucose environment most recover
12 - the longer they are damaged - the longer it takes them to recover
13 - in recently diagnosed T2 - Beta cell recovery can be achieved in a couple of weeks on a 600 cal a day diet

From what I have read, Dr's and Dieticians tend to support both rapid and gradual weight loss. While it seems to be agreed that there is no 'best way' to lose weight, this set of findings suggests to me that time between diagnosis and reaching your personal fat threshold is critical or at the very least important.

 

[Steve50]

Again - a link to a video - risky - but worth it if you really want to understand the science of weight loss (fast or slow!!!)

 

[AndBreathe]

I want to thank everyone who has chimed in on my recent post with opinions. I am serious about putting my T2 into remission Yet I also sense that I am living somewhat in the unknown. Some folks still have a BMI north of 25 and are now in T2DM remission and are working off to a BMI of say 24 or so. Yet with my BMI now at 23 and sketchy numbers on my FBGs I am very concerned if the actual path I chose, which was slow and steady weight loss was the right move? While I'll not give up the ground already attained, if I had a do-over @ a BMI of 27 I might have gone ND / NP. Then, if with that shock to the system, when I got a BMI of 25 I'd have cleared the pancreas and liver of the issues and it would then be my choice to decide where I'd like to finish my NP ND at (say) a BMI of 24. Now I am at a BMI of 23 and still not seeing the end in sight..This is the real concern as far as It faces me right now. As a bit of background I've actually lost close on 26% of my body weight or 63lbs without becoming un-diabetic yet.

Does this make more sense?

I don't think it's just about reaching a BMI, or x% of starting weight. If it was then by now, a more forumulaic way of approaching this problem would be developing. Obviously, that could be the case for Prof Taylor but we don't know it yet, but that is purely speculation on my part. The big problem is we have no idea at what point we tipped over the PFT and where we might tip back over it into remission/resolution or whatever you want to call it. Clearly, nor do we know if it is the same point of fat carrying that would tip anyone back into a diabetic state from a remission. All anyone can do is give it their best shot and take their weight to a place they feel comfortable - whether that be defined by weight, BMI, appearance, feedback from family/physicians or whatever.

I stick with my belief that whilst there are a variety of ways to skin this metaphoric cat, unfortunately some people will never achieve that - by virtue of pancreatic damage, unsustainability, other health considerations of a million and one other factors.

Apart from one, diagnostic HbA1c, all of my HbA1cs have been well into the non-diabetic ranges. I have no idea at what point of my journey to a skinny BMI of 18.4 I crossed my personal threshold. If it was non-diabetic fasting finger-prick tests, it would have been within a month of my diagnosis. If it was based on the non-diabetic HbA1c, it would have been the first available 3 after that. But, for me, I could not risk resting there. I felt I wanted to replicate my bloods and trim right back, as I saw that as a fundamental aid to keeping my blood scores down.

As I have said many times. I have not followed the ND. I admire those who do. Had I discovered it within my early weeks post-diagnosis, I might have given it a go, but I don't believe it is the silver bullet solution. And to reiterate, I don't believe there is a solution for everyone. But, I do know I have been very fortunate and don't intend to stress my body as I obviously did before.

 

[Wildrover]

I think he is saying either way is fine. It's whatever suits the individual, and he does acknowledge (although not in this paper) that the ND isn't for everyone because of it's brutality, lifestyle and social ramifications.

Good luck with whatever you try. Again, if you haven't read it, @Andrew Colvin 's threads are extremely informative. He achieved his desired result using real, proper food, whilst doing plenty of exercise and working full time.

Hi AB
Day 46/56 tomorrow on the ND and will certainly read Andrew Colvin's threads, Thanks

 

[Tiger 1]

Hi Geordie 90 I am on the Newcastle diet now into my 4th week . Loosing quite a lot of weight , bloods now in the 4 - 6 all the time . Starting weight 20.03 stone. Currently 17.9 stone. Hight 5.6 age 55 soon .