NFI Diet. Experiences?

[bulkbiker]

but calling carbs "completely unnecessary" is a bit extreme.

It is actually scientific fact.

 

[AloeSvea]

What an interesting thread! Lead me to read up the nfi diet website, and any info on David Hickman, and Zuzana Plevova, the co-founders, I could find.

Yes, it does make one very keen to know what their chemistry and biology principles ARE behind the diet...

Looking at the food sample -

https://nfidiet.com/example_day_1.php

Reminded me of looking at the amount of food 600-800 calories was re the Newcastle Diet - it made me want to cry! Especially the salad for dinner. Any promise of salad filling me up makes me want to cry... out with a denial. (I could not eat the quinoa with my insulin resistance...) And I don't trust anyone talking about being filled up on a salad.

But if you are a vegetarian, I can see that those foods wouldn't make you want to cry perhaps...

And wow that banana, orange,, rice, albeit brown rice, quinoa, porridge doesn't send the diabetic's blood glucose sky high, as it would mine...

And yes, it does sound like Neal Barnard and his promise that legumes and such will resolve insulin resistance issues and type two.

But if it works for you @target6point4 - this is indeed marvellous, and I agree with you wholeheartedly about the different Ways Of Eating strokes for different (in our case T2D) folks...

Also, it can be nice to get support and encouragement from a program... changing your way of eating and experimenting with your health goals and methods can be a lonely business. Hope you find others in this forum who are giving it a bash? And will watch the outcomes and discussion (PLEASE - tell us about the food combining) - very interesting.

 

[Oldvatr]

If I had evidence of, or suspected tht, by taking a chemical from Food(A) and mixing it with a chemical from Food(B) to make a new chemical (C) that had the power to remove adipose fat without disturbing the rest of the lymphatic system, then I would keep stumm about it until I had isolated the process, managed to synthesise it in a testube, make sure I could scale up to making large vats of it in a factory. Then I would make sure I patented it, This has got to be the Golden Goose of this century, and I would not faff about selling diet plans and leaving it open to others to make their fortunes from. Is this why explanations in the website are so poor and insubstantial?

I am having real difficulty seeing how this diet would lead to the claims being made for it especially for T2 diabetics. It is unrestricted calories, and one can eat as much as one wants to. It allows foods such as oatmeal, brown rice, quinoa, and bread It is certainly not Keto, nor VLCD, but is very, very low fat. The high level of carbs recommended in unlimited amounts and uncontrolled portion sizes is an anathema to most T2D reading this and it defies both science (carbs directly lead to increasing glucose levels) and personal experiences, and anecdotal evidence throughout this Forum. Even normal non diabetics have a rise in glucose levels when eating carbs. The body is designed to respond to the amylase rushes to give two insulin responses (but T2D have an impaired reaction) and this is how it has been since man first walked the earth.

So my first stake in the ground is that a high carb diet will result in a rise in bgl. It is nothing to do with omnivore vs plant based, but is due to diets with high carb intake.

Moving on and assuming this stake remains standing, then a T2D eating some foods as recommended will see their bgl start to tise after the meal. Since one hallmark of T2D is insulin resistancem then this will mean that the body has difficulty in either using up or storing the glucose in the blood, and it will tend to remain atelevted levels for some time. This level of bgl is enough to prevent not just storage but also of using stored glucose until bgl levels drop to normal. Importantly it stops the body creating glucose from lipids or emptying the existing glucose stores in the liver. So it keeps what you already got. Adipose fat remains untouched.

Gradually bgl levels drop as we expend energy. Since the diet states that exercise is not a requirement of the diet plan then this may take a while. Now considering the adipose fat (tiny lipid particles as the diet states) then this only gets used when the body is not in storage mode, so having high levels of insulin and high glucose levels prevents the body from using lipids as a source of energy. So the average T2D will spend most of the day trying to force excess glucose into storage, which is the hallmark of our condition.

But this diet has one thing in its favour. It is ultra low fat (nuts anybody?). This means that the overll cholesterol load will drop and this is a supposed benefit of this diet that is apparently born out by evidence. Not that the ratios do not seem to alter, just the TC level. This means that any lipids that do escape the liver will not be easily replaced since there are few in the pipeline. BUT cholesterol has many uses. One use is to build and repair cells, so reducing the TC has been shown by science to lead to higher mortality since damaged cells do not get replaced. It may please the doctor but is not as healthy as has been made out.

The other thing that a low TC can lead to is muscle wasting. The body need lipid fats for the protein and amino acids to build muscle tissue. Diets that reduce fat too much can force the body to scavenge muscle tissue to get the cholesterol it needs to (a) make new cholesterol, and (b) repair cells using glycerol from dead cholesterol or scavenged from muscle cells. This phenomenon is understood especially by those doing athletics and fitness training and is not specific to this diet, but to any ULF diet.

So where this diet claims to remove lipid fat in a short space of time, I am left puzzled. The average T2D with insulin resistance does not give up adipose fat or metabolic syndrome without a fight, It is stubborn to shift at the best of times. We see this diet reduces lipid traffic in the blood, so there is no evidence there that liver lipids are coming out of the liver. so where is it going? Metabolic rate is controlled by the thyroid gland, so is the chemical(C) interfering with its function? Is that safe? Does anyone know? Do the Founders know? What does Chemical(C) do? Does it pop the fat bubbles in storage? Surely the lipds go somewhere, and they cannot go unmasked in the blood (water insoluble) so could be ending up as damaged cholesterol (i.e. trigs) and so present an increased risk of blood clots. This is where the diet plan falls down, It has no explanation of what happens to these lipids. A spare tyre full of blubbering lipids holds an awful lot of energy, so if my metabolism increased then it will have very significant visual clues (overheating, boundless energy, restlessness, bulging eyes, overstimulated thought processes, sleeplessness)

I do not buy into their story that chemical(C) is a magic bullet. If it exists, then there will be a pill for it.

Anybody got a different theory?

 

[target6point4]

@Oldvatr Let me clarify a couple of things which I think you have gotten wrong. The diet is revised every two weeks if necessary but is not a lifelong diet. The diet includes only WFPB foods so I would not worry about any serious deficiencies being caused over the duration of the diet. The diet allows certain foods in unlimited portions (mostyl fiber rich vegetables and greens) but food containg carbs are restricted so that the total carb intake does not exceed 100g a day. A slightly excess amount of fiber in the diet leads to reduced hunger, thereby making sure that one can stick easily to the three meal a day plan. I doubt if the diet actually provides enough calories by itself. The diet by may calculation still leaves a shortfall of about 500 - 700 kcal a day which adds up to around 3 to 6 pounds of fat a month, a lot like with the Newcastle diet. As for the pill for element C, there could be a lot of factors for its unavailability. It is likely that Element C has not yet been exactly identified, isolated etc. Ancient cultures are full of dos and donts when it comes to food. The sheer explosion in the food "industry" over the past 40 odd years though has made us completely disregard those. There are cultures, like the French for e.g. who have retained their eating habits and hence show lower incidence rates compared to the UK or the US

 

[bulkbiker]

There are cultures, like the French for e.g. who have retained their eating habits and hence show lower incidence rates compared to the UK or the US

And who in no way eat a WFPB diet?
Animal based foods are everywhere in France.

 

[Oldvatr]

I thought I recognised the strains of WFPB which is a tune that was played at length in this Forum. I do not accept the title WFPB as a get put of jail free card, since we spent several months seeking the science behind their diet, and found it wanting. Seems we have not moved on much since then.

It is this insistance that the diet leads to T2 Remission that I am at odds with. The claims keep being stated without reasonable backing, and quite frankly I do not believe them. The main claim I have seen is that insulin users are no longer needing it and there is a glossy video extolling that. But no follow up studies to substantiate it in a wider sample.

The diet plan is 2 weeks, but is as I said earlier a repeating exercise for up to 12 weeks (3 months) which is not a short term venture. It is not a lifetime venture either, but then where are the follow ups that show that the remission is more than just a flash in the pan.. Newcastle Diet and the media made that mistake, and yet there are many forum users admitting that they have relapsed since. I am a low carber, and although I did achieve a period of remission, I too relapsed, and I am committed to using a LC WOE for life. But my IR is significantly reduced and my spare tyre is deflated.

As a matter of interest to our readers - does the 2 week plan mean that you will need to pay again to do the next 2 weeks?

Considering that WFPB headquarters are just down the road from Harvard Medical School, then I am surprised they have not tapped into that resource by now, but rely on ADVENT 2 and Neal Barnards work for their 'science' If you find papers to share please do, but preferably not in Slovak or published by Pravda.

 

[Oldvatr]

I found this in passing
"The NFI Protocol results in 82.9 percent of patients stopping all medication within 20 weeks (based on verifiable data from 831 people). With medical supervision, the type 2 diabetes reversal rate on the NFI protocol is 93.6 percent (based on Dr. Lejavova's cohort of 117 patients)."

Will be interesting to see if this is sustained in the general populace

The NFI website now has more science information
"
The NFI diet is a whole-food plant-based diet that goes one step further, by mixing and matching different plant foods in combinations that are tailored to an individual person. It was developed by scientists and engineers in Europe who looked at the molecular interactions of thousands of specific foods to understand how they affect lipid saturation and other relevant markers in different patients. "

Hint - they added the word "molecular"

 

[Oldvatr]

At last some science. Think this may be relevant
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2739696/

 

[Oldvatr]

At last some science. Think this may be relevant
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2739696/

And one that refutes it
http://web.diabetes.org/perspectives/new/ADA Journal_49_5_Searchable.pdf

 

[target6point4]

And who in no way eat a WFPB diet?
Animal based foods are everywhere in France.

Yes. But they are not the ONLY foods in a traditional French diet. The French diet cannot be classified as Keto or VLCD or even LCHF. It is a balanced diet that has been tuned to the physiology of the local populace over centuries. The same cannot be said about many other countries. The average UK diet for e.g. has been influenced substantially by other cultures in a way and at a speed which is bound to have adverse effect on the general health of people.

 

[target6point4]

@Oldvatr Thanks for the links. I will need some time to go through this information.

As for your question, yes you have to pay every two weeks for a new diet plan. I intend to continue as I have not had any diet or therapy be so easy to follow and effective at the same time. I also plan to upload a summary of my blood sugars over the two weeks to give an idea about how it has worked out for me.

 

[bulkbiker]

Yes. But they are not the ONLY foods in a traditional French diet. The French diet cannot be classified as Keto or VLCD or even LCHF. It is a balanced diet that has been tuned to the physiology of the local populace over centuries. The same cannot be said about many other countries. The average UK diet for e.g. has been influenced substantially by other cultures in a way and at a speed which is bound to have adverse effect on the general health of people.

Indeed although as someone who lived in France for a few years I can safely say that they are heading towards the catastrophe that UK eating has become.
But that still doesn't negate my main point.

I hope I'm not sounding too negative but your suggested reversal procedure for your T2 has been shown to be a bit effective but not great,. I'm just suggesting that there are pleasanter ways of eating that will help far more.

As I always say it is your diabetes nobody elses but we have been around for a while and seen many try what you want to do.

 

[target6point4]

@bulkbiker I agree that I have a very long way to go. I am still on meds and the diet will have accomplished its goals if I can maintain my current numbers by significantly reducing my medication or even stopping them completely. I think what can be considered as a pleasent way of eating is very personal. I intend to use this thread to document my experiences. I don't know why those who have tried before me have failed but if and when I fail, this thread should serve as a record of what went wrong.

 

[bulkbiker]

@bulkbiker I agree that I have a very long way to go. I am still on meds and the diet will have accomplished its goals if I can maintain my current numbers by significantly reducing my medication or even stopping them completely. I think what can be considered as a pleasent way of eating is very personal. I intend to use this thread to document my experiences. I don't know why those who have tried before me have failed but if and when I fail, this thread should serve as a record of what went wrong.

Good luck with it.. please keep us in the loop.

It would be great to see someone succeed following this protocol. (I just hope it's not too expensive).

 

[Oldvatr]

@target6point4 this thread is falling off the watched list for most of us, so may I suggest that when you have some results to share then you open up a new thread for it.

 

[target6point4]

@target6point4 this thread is falling off the watched list for most of us, so may I suggest that when you have some results to share then you open up a new thread for it.

I will have some results tomorrow evening. Should I still put them in a new thread? I was hoping one long thread will keep all the information in one place. Just a thought.

 

[Oldvatr]

I will have some results tomorrow evening. Should I still put them in a new thread? I was hoping one long thread will keep all the information in one place. Just a thought.

You can try this thread, but I found out that when a thread goes dormant, then it becomes increasingly harder to bump it back up into the front page news, which is what most of us use. I do a daily scan of that list, but miss many of the smaller interest topics that can show for only a couple of hours in the Top 20 because of all the boiler plate questionnaires for fasting blood levels etc that quickly fill it.

 

[Oldvatr]

I think I have identified the magic chemical they are trying to synthesize. Hoping to make my fortune by patenting it so cannot reveal it.

 

[target6point4]

You can try this thread, but I found out that when a thread goes dormant, then it becomes increasingly harder to bump it back up into the front page news, which is what most of us use. I do a daily scan of that list, but miss many of the smaller interest topics that can show for only a couple of hours in the Top 20 because of all the boiler plate questionnaires for fasting blood levels etc that quickly fill it.

Can't you just follow the thread by setting an alert?

 

[target6point4]

I think I have identified the magic chemical they are trying to synthesize. Hoping to make my fortune by patenting it so cannot reveal it.

Just tell us the food combinations required
There will still be plenty of people out there who would rather pop a pill than do all the hard work.