Non Diabetic high blood sugar after meal.

Intermittent_faster said:

I hope some of this is of use to you David.

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It's very interesting and my only point was that I didn't fit into his explanation of where the problem started. Processed food hasn't been part of my diet since 1989 and I know that date because it's when my wife and I brought a home together and she said that I wasn't going to eat the bachelor **** I was used to. We were both working long hours so our evening meal was frequently a Weight Watchers meal plus some additional veg. I gained three stones in three months. As you can imagine I was not happy and sought "expert" help, hospital dietician said it was the salt in frozen meals that caused the weight gain. So I know that in 1989 we started eating foods that were not processed, except tinned tomatoes and beans. Wholemeal bread, I almost forgot.

The low carb diet worked for 3 years, I was only eating vegetables (grown above ground) and maybe some chicken, lamb, pork or beef. Also some eggs and cheese and yoghurt sometimes. Then my body started getting it's glucose from protein. I've been using a FreeStyle Libre for several months and it's been invaluable. I did try Januvia (Sitagliptin) for a while but my BG just went bonkers, no use at all. So I'm currently just eating vegetables because I'm trying to imitate the Newcastle Diet and after 4 weeks the initial results look good because with no protein or carb my BG is steady between 5.5 and 7. I have tried some chicken and some lamb, just to see what happens and pleased to say "nothing" but it's just been a couple of time because to be honest, I'm not a saint.

Intermittent_faster said:

Once you have found what works for you

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Still work in progress, I'm trying things from all sources so your link was useful. I'll keep the Newcastle thing going for another 4 - 8 weeks and then see where I am. Losing weight has become as important as keeping BG on the straight and narrow.

Intermittent_faster said:

no going back to the old ways of eating sodas, biscuits, white bread, etc.

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I haven't had any of that for so long, I've forgotten.

One other thing, he mentions eating 700 gms of carbohydrate per day, that's about 2,800 calories. I definitely would never be able to manage that. I don't know enough about type 1, but it must be murder counting carbs to calculate insulin dose, he must have his own calculation.

Intermittent_faster said:

I think you'll find that neither of these philosophies advocate high protein. One of the main points of advise on these diets is 'moderate' protein. It was Dr Atkins who started the whole high fat high protein fad. You can eat high fat without loads of protein: butter, coconuts, avocados, olives, lard, nuts.
I also wonder how long it'll be before protein becomes the bad boy in everyone's eyes. Fat has had that label and now carbs. As far as I'm concerned it's simply unnatural foods that are the bad boys.

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Dr Atkins got a lot of negative press - and the fad diet label was almost obligatory - but the truth is actually a bit different.
Whist doing Atkins I ate the same amounts of protein as my husband and children, because that seemed to do the trick. As Dr A points out, protein is usually self limiting as excess tends to turn off the appetite.
The high fat part is because there are so many low fat variants around that we need to make a conscious effort to add fats or find higher fat foods after cutting out the fried or fatty carb laden foods.

DavidGrahamJones said:

my only point was that I didn't fit into his explanation of where the problem started.

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Can you remember if it all started after some illness. Maybe you had antibiotics? Have you had a stool analysis done? Maybe your microbiome is not very diverse. Did you see one of the recent 'Doctor in the House' episodes on tv where there was a family who ate quite healthily and were very active but their 11yr old was 11st and blood test showed him to be prediabetic. He hardly ate anything but was still gaining weight. They tried him on low carb diet to no avail but when they tested his stool it showed he had a very small range of bacteria. They added more gut friendly foods and it solved the problem. I wonder could this be you or, indeed, others who's blood sugar spikes wildly but are not diabetic. It's just made me think now about when all my problems started and sure enough I'd had 3 courses of antibiotics for re-occurring tonsillitis all in the space of about 4 months in my early 20s. I now eat lots of fermented products so maybe this is in fact what sorted out my problems along with the fasting and generally healthy diet. Just another thought as you really do have quite a conundrum of a case eh. You need a nutritional Poirot on your case!

Csarscott said:

Hi , I joined the forum a couple of months ago to help my wife who was diagnosed in 2009, after seeing the "Fixing Dad" story on tv. She has been following LCHF and testing sugar levels to see what affects her.

I have checked my levels a few times out of curiosity as I used to eat a lot of carbs and sugar, although a fasting blood test last July was 5.1.

Went out for a birthday meal last night, not very healthy, Not sure why but I checked my sugar level when we got home 2hrs later and it was 9.9, I don't know what is was before eating, fasting level this morning was 5.5.

Is this really bad?

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That's normal even non diabetics have high rises after a big meal Some here have tested non diabetic family members and have found their levels can be in double figures if they have had a lot of sugar and starchy carbs they just come down a lot quicker than a diabetic

Resurgam said:

Dr Atkins got a lot of negative press - and the fad diet label was almost obligatory - but the truth is actually a bit different.
.

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You are right -

Resurgam said:

Dr Atkins got a lot of negative press - and the fad diet label was almost obligatory - but the truth is actually a bit different.
Whist doing Atkins I ate the same amounts of protein as my husband and children, because that seemed to do the trick. As Dr A points out, protein is usually self limiting as excess tends to turn off the appetite.
The high fat part is because there are so many low fat variants around that we need to make a conscious effort to add fats or find higher fat foods after cutting out the fried or fatty carb laden foods.

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Yes I agree that most people do self limit the protein and I was wrong to use the 'fad' word. If it wasn't for Dr Aitkins work the general public may never have got to realising the benefits of ketosis. I think the bad reputation came from those who didn't like eating their veggies and so binged on nothing but processed meat and cheese and then suffered the consequences of that. Interestingly Dr Aitkins started a cancer clinic but gave up on it as it wasn't working. The HFLC brigade theorise that this was because the protein intake was too high.

CherryAA said:

I did wonder when I read your comment. I think the entire point of all of this is that actually humans don't need anything like as much food to live on as we currently do. That is because selling us stuff to eat is profitable. if what we eat is generally limited, all natural, and we only eat the proteins we actually need, then on balance our diet whether as a vegetarian or carnivore, is likely to contain quite a lot of all kinds of fat and a lot of nutrients from vegetables and because the fats part is more nutrient dense that is likely to be quite high fat in all scenarios.

I suspect it doesn't actually matter all that much which actual foods we choose to meet our goals i.e.whether meat, diary, and fish or nuts seeds and pulses or some combination of the two, once we have cut out industrially refined oils, and manufactured products - those are the evil things, Sure once diabetic one then has to look to the other things - potatoes, dense vegetables, rice - but in reality those are not the things that caused the damage - its frying processed garbage in toxic oils and eating industrially manufactured foods full of hidden sugar whilst not eating natural foods because of our fears that they are fattening, leading to ever higher consumption of stuff that just isn't food really that did that.

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I come from the generation that always cooked real food from fresh and I still do. It was very rare for me to have anything like a burger, pizza or any take away fast foods was never a big sugar or starchy carbs eater and never been overweight. I am not really a believer that what we have eaten has caused our diabetes I think some people are more predisposed to it whatever their life style is and that medication we take for other problems like statins and steriods can also cause it

Intermittent_faster said:

You are right -

Yes I agree that most people do self limit the protein and I was wrong to use the 'fad' word. If it wasn't for Dr Aitkins work the general public may never have got to realising the benefits of ketosis. I think the bad reputation came from those who didn't like eating their veggies and so binged on nothing but processed meat and cheese and then suffered the consequences of that. Interestingly Dr Aitkins started a cancer clinic but gave up on it as it wasn't working. The HFLC brigade theorise that this was because the protein intake was too high.

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So, the bacon and cheese diet, not good?

Pinkorchid said:

I come from the generation that always cooked real food from fresh and I still do. It was very rare for me to have anything like a burger, pizza or any take away fast foods was never a big sugar or starchy carbs eater and never been overweight. I am not really a believer that what we have eaten has caused our diabetes I think some people are more predisposed to it whatever their life style is and that medication we take for other problems like statins and steriods can also cause it

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I certainly agree that genetics seems to play a big part. I am have never been a fast food fan myself but I have never really had recourse to statins or steroids either. I did swallow the "low fat " mantra" though consuming many of the low fat products in preference to real foods because I thought I needed to. It certainly didn't help me !

Intermittent_faster said:

You need a nutritional Poirot on your case!

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I have one, Her first degree is in chemistry, she has an MBA and a degree in Nutritional Medicine. I only mention that to emphasise the importance of qualified NTs, seems anybody can call themselves a Nutritional Therapist without the 3 years study to get a degree. I am one of only two of her clients who have not responded in the expected way to her suggestions although to be fair low carb was definitely a move in the right direction. Whatever the guy in the video was saying, that did not work for me, I cut down from the average 250 gms to about 40 gms and I lost loads and more importantly threw away Gliclazide, Januvia and Atorvastatin. I just cut out bread, potato, rice, pasta. Arguably wholemeal bread, brown rice and pasta are processed foods so they are not allowable carbs in his book anyway.

My weight escalated to 27st while taking Rosiglitazone (helped by citilapram) in about 2001, prescribed because I'd had so much trouble with Metformin, anal leakage not being conducive with holding down a job. I was taken off Rosiglitazone because it was wrecking my liver and I lost about 4st until I was prescribed Gliclazide. Lost again when I went low carb. As for antibiotics, I was prescribed them for several months as the result of infections in both legs caused by mosquito bites, probably about the time of the Rosiglitazone, but my memory is vague.

I have had to deal with antibiotics several times in the last couple of years because of two knee replacements, peritonitis and now another leg infection caused by a fall (no wound but a leg infection). Thanks to my Nutritional Therapist we have been looking at gut flora, bacteria and fungus, and have taken steps to encourage the good stuff and discourage the bad stuff. As you know antibiotics tend to wipe everything out and they need encouragement to regrow in the right proportions.

Apologies for going "off topic". Although that's how conversations go in the real world.

Intermittent_faster said:

There are plenty of people using the high carb diet.

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Just been trying to work out by what he means when he say he consumes 700 gms of carb a day. If it's mainly veg then he's got to eat a lot of veg. If you start to include pulses and grains, my trusty old FreeStyle Libre tells me exactly what happens and it doesn't quite tie up with his experience. I need to read what he's doing to get a grip really. I'm just a bit confused by what he means by 700 gms of carbohydrate.

Really struggling with the calculations to get to 700 gms carb.

If you have broccoli, cabbage, cauliflower, lettuce, mushrooms, peppers, courgette and aubergine and had 1kg of each, that's still only 300gms of carb. Even adding 100gms of rice only adds 30 gms.

I've subscribed to his mail thingy so will discover more as I go along.

The veg I've chosen are typical for me, perhaps I'm restricting myself. I could have added tomatoes. Any more for any more. LOL

DavidGrahamJones said:

Just been trying to work out by what he means when he say he consumes 700 gms of carb a day. If it's mainly veg then he's got to eat a lot of veg. If you start to include pulses and grains, my trusty old FreeStyle Libre tells me exactly what happens and it doesn't quite tie up with his experience. I need to read what he's doing to get a grip really. I'm just a bit confused by what he means by 700 gms of carbohydrate.

Really struggling with the calculations to get to 700 gms carb.

If you have broccoli, cabbage, cauliflower, lettuce, mushrooms, peppers, courgette and aubergine and had 1kg of each, that's still only 300gms of carb. Even adding 100gms of rice only adds 30 gms.

I've subscribed to his mail thingy so will discover more as I go along.

The veg I've chosen are typical for me, perhaps I'm restricting myself. I could have added tomatoes. Any more for any more. LOL

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He suggests a 70/15/15 % approach, to cals from carbs protein fats.
So if 700g of carbs make up 70% of your diet, that equates to 4000 calories a day.

I'd suggest for me, I'd be looking at half that.

DavidGrahamJones said:

Really struggling with the calculations to get to 700 gms carb.

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Yeah, I think the hard core high carbers eat a lot of sweet potato, bananas, buckwheat etc. I just bloat up if I eat loads of that kind of food so if I'm on a high carb low fat cycle I just keep the macro correct and eat to my fill without eating masses of starch. I think it is just keeping the fat real low that improves the insulin sensitivity, just as eating high fat low carb means you don't need to produce as much insulin. To me it's the fat : carb and protein ratio that is crucial in that it has to be extreme one way or the other. Well that's the way I understand it, maybe I'm wrong?

Intermittent_faster said:

Yeah, I think the hard core high carbers eat a lot of sweet potato, bananas, buckwheat etc. I just bloat up if I eat loads of that kind of food so if I'm on a high carb low fat cycle I just keep the macro correct and eat to my fill without eating masses of starch. I think it is just keeping the fat real low that improves the insulin sensitivity, just as eating high fat low carb means you don't need to produce as much insulin. To me it's the fat : carb and protein ratio that is crucial in that it has to be extreme one way or the other. Well that's the way I understand it, maybe I'm wrong?

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Which carbs do you eat in your high carb periods and in what quantity?

Bluetit1802 said:

Which carbs do you eat in your high carb periods and in what quantity?

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My go to savory starches are buckwheat, quinoa, brown rice, lentils & legumes but only about half a cup with a meal, sometimes up to 1 cup or else it's too bloaty. I eat a LOT of veggies with this, usually with a home made sauce or dressing of some kind as I'm not keen on dry food.
My go to sweet starches are dates, bananas, apples, apricots although I do eat most other fruits too but these are just my main preference. I'll eat 2 or 3 pieces of fresh fruit and 2-4 dates for one of my meals (I only eat 2 meals a day max). I always have dates as they are my favourite. Sometimes I even just eat dates and nothing else all day (probably about 12 dates max) - known as a date fast.

Intermittent_faster said:

My go to savory starches are buckwheat, quinoa, brown rice, lentils & legumes but only about half a cup with a meal, sometimes up to 1 cup or else it's too bloaty. I eat a LOT of veggies with this, usually with a home made sauce or dressing of some kind as I'm not keen on dry food.
My go to sweet starches are dates, bananas, apples, apricots although I do eat most other fruits too but these are just my main preference. I'll eat 2 or 3 pieces of fresh fruit and 2-4 dates for one of my meals (I only eat 2 meals a day max). I always have dates as they are my favourite. Sometimes I even just eat dates and nothing else all day (probably about 12 dates max) - known as a date fast.

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Thanks for the info. Wow! What a lot of fructose and sugar in those fruits!

I note from your status that you don't have diabetes. Is this correct?
Are you concerned you may be on the way to diabetes?
Do you think you have insulin resistance or a fatty liver?
Do you test your levels?

All that fruit would have me on insulin in no time. One single plum sent me to double figures. (The birds got the rest of the punnet)

Fructose is not good for T2 diabetics or pre-diabetics because it is dealt with by the liver rather than the digestive tracts, a bit like alcohol is. It is known to be a big contributor to fatty livers, which in turn create problems in dealing with glucose. Even my diabetes nurse says restrict/avoid fruit, and she no way recommends low carb.

Intermittent_faster said:

just as eating high fat low carb

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Everyone refers to high fat this a low fat that, but nobody defines exactly what those amounts are.

I have a piece of software called weight by date which says I should be consuming 80 gms of fat per day and 300 gms of carbohydrate per day. I've just used an online calculator that suggests 65 gms of fat and 260 gms of carbohydrate for a person of my age/gender/weight/height. My software says that I eat 40 gms of carb and 22gms of fat so I think I'm officially low carb and low fat. Not that it really matters.

My suspicion that 700gms of carb per day is inaccurate is conformed by what I get from my software if I input 1000gms of broccoli, cabbage, peppers, cauliflower, mushrooms, tomatoes, squash, salad and sweet potato, it's only 600 gms carb. 3 kgs of sweet potato is still only 600 gms of carb. Can people really eat that much? I really need to find out how he does that.

DavidGrahamJones said:

3 kgs of sweet potato is still only 600 gms of carb. Can people really eat that much? I really need to find out how he does that.

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No you don't just gaze on in admiration for one determined dude.

Bluetit1802 said:

What a lot of fructose and sugar in those fruits!

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Yes it is a lot of fructose but see below.

Yes I'm ND, I never got to the stage of being diagnosed as fully diabetic thankfully but I was on my way there and wanted to make sure I didn't get to that stage. It's an incredibly long story that I won't bore you with and I understand that my situation is nothing like others here. I was only responding initially to the original poster who is also ND but got drawn in - as one does - with further discussion. I came upon the post whilst googling (I'm an avid nutrition googler) and was intrigued as it reminded me of me all those years ago.

No I am not concerned about becoming diabetic any more but I am never going to be complacent over my diet ever again as I know how easy it is to slide back there.
No I'm sure I don't have insulin resistance or fatty liver now.
No I don't test my levels now other than general yearly blood tests by my doc. Last time I tested with a meter was probably 2yrs ago as my health and weight has now stabilized.
Regarding the fruit - I totally understand where you are coming from. I should have reiterated that I am a ND after listing my foods. If I had eaten this amount of fruit back when I was ill my sugar levels would have rocketed and I would have slept for hours after but back then I was eating all sorts of other stuff as well as the fruit.

Have you heard of the The Kempner Rice Diet? It used to be used to treat diabeties and high blood pressure before medications were available. The diet consisted of nothing but white rice, fruit, fruit juice and sugar. Sounds lethal right?! But it worked and it was the only treatment available. Like I said in a previous post 'this kind of diet really does need supervision'. It's very extreme and so potentially dangerous. There are also many functional medical doctors using these kind of extremes to treat diabetes now, both lowcabhighfat and lowfathighcarb and are getting results. The main danger I think with these approaches is that there is no room for cheating - it's all or nothing otherwise it becomes even more dangerous, esp the highcarblowfat diet.

I'm lucky that I was well enough to be able to experiment on myself and try out the extremes without killing myself and find what worked for me to improve my situation (my doctor probably would have totally disapproved if I had told him what I was doing). I would definitely not advise anyone who is full blown diabetic to experiment without full supervision!

I am in permanent ketosis. I have the unfortunate extreme weird condition that won't allow any leeway in what I put in my mouth.
There are many reasons how I got here but no definite actual evidence.

I am non diabetic and have to control my blood glucose levels.
That means as few carbs and a balanced protein fat carb ratio.
Intermittent fasting and the food I eat is the answer to my control.
This is how I sustain my being continually in ketosis for nearly three years.
It is simple, I don't eat too much, my health is very good.

Sometimes we become too obsessive in how we approach our nutrition and after doing all the testing and experimentation that I needed to do. It was a relief to actually not think about food until I wanted to eat, I wasn't hungry, I just eat to survive, not much, enough to keep healthy!

This is for life, and I don't want or need to spend my life when I am so busy to worry if I've had food. I don't need to or want to.
It works for me.

This is my personal and individual diet.
No recommendations or saying it is better than doing something else to be healthy.
Maybe, if approaching diabetes diagnostic tests were done to find cause and prevention, the health service would not be under so much pressure.

Lifestyle is more important than diet!

Lamont D said:

permanent kerosine

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Not sure what this means. Google didn't help. Could you please explain? Thanks.