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Obesity Survey

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Fizzwizz

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Dear all

Firstly forgive me for asking a favour of you on my first forum post without contributing anything to this board.

I'm a final year student Doctor doing my senior clinical project on obesity and its related co-morbidities. I have a short 9 question survey I'm hoping some of you can spare the time to complete. It is totally anonymous and will be a tremendous help to my project.

It can be found here http://www.obesitysurvey.info

Thank you for taking the time to read this.

Best wishes ... Fizz
 
The link worked for me but I am not happy about giving my email address.
 
Fizzwizz said:
Dear all

Firstly forgive me for asking a favour of you on my first forum post without contributing anything to this board.

I'm a final year student Doctor doing my senior clinical project on obesity and its related co-morbidities.

Had you considered you are putting the cart before the horse? Much current research is suggesting that obesity is a symptom rather than a cause and hyperinsulinemia is a factor (along with genetics)

query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F04E2D61F3EF934A35754C0A9649C8B63&sec=health

second-opinions.co.uk/taubes.html

Gary Taubes has extended "Endocrinology 101" into a massive book The Diet Delusion, and there is a lot of ongoing research

nutritionandmetabolism.com/home/

and most of the blogs listed here

weightoftheevidence.wordpress.com/

I realise you would probably be failed if you were to think out of the current box, I'm just passing this on for interest and asking if your courses cover any of this material?

(skinny Type 2 from a family of skinny fit people with high insulin resistance)
 
Well said, Trinkwasser.
From the original post I suspected an assumption that diabetics must be obese - there was no mention of "those who are overweight" completing the survey. There's no mention of diabetes type on the survey either. Would the views of those who've never had a weight problem (and their weight is not a factor in them developing diabetes) really contribute anything?
 
Dear Fizz .......... Save yourself some effort and time . TAKE A LOOK AT THE LO CARB THREADS AND TAKE NOTICE OF THE RESULTS PEOPLE ARE HAVING BY BASICALLY GOING CONTRARY TO CURRENT DIETRY ADVICE

Pleasant reading
Dave P
 
Hi all

Thanks for the replies. Obesity as a symptom is very much in line with our current beliefs. Obesity for many (not all) is caused by a metabolic/neurological derrangement and the altering of "Set Point". Contary to popular belief some of the bariatric procedures are about trying to address the set point problem, and are not about inducing malnutrition.

As for giving your email address, please don't worry. The information is not utilised for anything else other than verification.

As for the low carb approach, there is much about this that makes sense to me, however, like many other dietry approaches, the evidence shows that the long term results are poor. Unfortunately most non academic feedback is always short term (< 10 yrs). Diet of any type seems to be unsuccessful in the long term, again this comes down to the theory of set point in my opinion.

Without sounding like an avid advocate of bariatric surgery, the evidence shows that this is the only long term solution to obesity at the moment.

Many thanks for your help with this.

Best wishes ... Fizz
 
Trinkwasser said:
I realise you would probably be failed if you were to think out of the current box

Not at all, the vast majority of the course in self learning, and a huge emphasis is placed on research, challenging theories, and thinking outside the box. The theoretical part of my course is finished, the Senior Clinical Project gives me the freedom to explore a subject of personal interest. My dissertation challenges, very strongly, pre-conceptions about obesity.

Thanks alot for all the links, I will work my way through them.

Best wishes ... Fizz
 
Dear Fizz , so you research , challenge and think outside the box ??? Ask the questions on this forum of how many do ? how long for , what are their test results and personal experiences, and perhaps most importantly how many would go back to the conventional advice. Or as said before check out the lo Carb diet thread on the site.

Changing the diet has got to be better than surgery and less expensive

In the interest of research of course

Dave P
 
sixfoot said:
Changing the diet has got to be better than surgery and less expensive

Absolutely Dave. But when you look at lifetime risk the safer option is often (not always) the surgery. (on this note I must say that surgery is not the right option for everyone who is obese).

As for expense, there are numerous studies now which have shown that the costs to the NHS of obesity related co-morbidities easily outweighs the cost of the surgery.

Thanks ... Fizz
 
As for expense, there are numerous studies now which have shown that the costs to the NHS of obesity related co-morbidities easily outweighs the cost of the surgery.

The cost of withholding test strip s from type 2 's is probably out weighed by the co- morbidities suffered by out of control type 2's as well.
 
sugarless sue said:
The cost of withholding test strip s from type 2 's is probably out weighed by the co- morbidities suffered by out of control type 2's as well.

Indeed, how the NHS rations it's funds is a minefield and is my primary interest for my dissertation.

Personally I feel the fundholders make some very odd financial decisions. Blinkered perspective is my opinion. I imagine they can't see beyond the cost of the strips. THis is probably due to the box type way people manage things these days. The holistic approach is a thing of the past I'm afraid.

I'm researching how trusts allocate funds at the moment, it's unbelievable complicated but fascinating. It touches on economics, politics, ethics, and law. Enough to make my nose bleed I think

... Fizz
 
Fizzwizz said:
As for the low carb approach, there is much about this that makes sense to me, however, like many other dietry approaches, the evidence shows that the long term results are poor. Unfortunately most non academic feedback is always short term (< 10 yrs). Diet of any type seems to be unsuccessful in the long term, again this comes down to the theory of set point in my opinion.

Without sounding like an avid advocate of bariatric surgery, the evidence shows that this is the only long term solution to obesity at the moment.

Many thanks for your help with this.

Best wishes ... Fizz
The sustainability of the low carb diet is being discussed on this thread.

I would suggest that the BIG PROBLEM with sustainability is the medical profession aided by such bodies as Diabetes UK who teach that a "Healthy Eating for Diabetes" [Quotes from NHS/DUK boklet.] requires "Starchy foods should be eaten at each meal." The emphasis on eating complex carbs that we are taught, and that a diabetes diet is healthy for everyone means that everyone is taught a diet that is easy to sustain but "helps to maintain blood sugar levels."

Soon after diagnosis I was taught that diet, AND warned about all the complications diabetics could suffer, & would as diabetes is progressive. Frankly, I was afraid NOT to follow the diet. Seven years on, complications did set in - muscle pains - for which my Dr prescribed quinine & retinopathy. Of course he knew that diabetes is progressive, & all you can do is treat the symptoms. Dr was happy with my control & my HBA of 6.7. A recent analysis of my former low GI diet amounted to over 3,000 cals per day, & 350-400 g carbs! It was very easy to cut the carbs to below 150 g.

At that point I learned from contributors to this forum that the NHS/DUK diet is DANGEROUS for diabetics - already verified by my experience. From fearing that I would become disabled by leg pains last spring, I am fully fit & playing tennis again at club standard.

Reduced carb diet is sustainable - the motivation is good health, active life, good BS control, reduced weight, improved cholesterol, etc.

Please, Fizz, don't take the negative approach that low carb is not sustainable. Encourage your patients, & set them a good example. You're obviously doing something wrong yourself at 21.5 stones! Why don't you join the forum as an enquirer & get advice. Tell us your diet. I'm sure our resident dietitians will analyse it for you. (Ally & Mrs Pugwash.) Our experience with our disease has made us expert patients, & we are happy to help all you come here - even members of the medical profession. We know that if we can help YOU, many patients will benefit.

p.s. I have answered your questionaire.
 
Fizz, the NHS is concerned at increasing national obesity, with all the resultant problems.

Obesity is caused by wrong diet.

Your attitude seems to be that only unhealthy diets are sustainable, but that obesity can be "cured" by surgery. Surely a positive campaign is needed to correct the nation's diet including the public information that EXCESS CARBOHYDRATES CAUSE OBESITY.
 
IanD said:
Reduced carb diet is sustainable - the motivation is good health, active life, good BS control, reduced weight, improved cholesterol, etc.

Please, Fizz, don't take the negative approach that low carb is not sustainable. Encourage your patients, & set them a good example. You're obviously doing something wrong yourself at 21.5 stones! Why don't you join the forum as an enquirer & get advice.
p.s. I have answered your questionaire.

Thank you for helping with the questionnaire.

I can see myself getting drawn into the debate here :-)

I think I should declare firstly that I have been a keen advocate of the low carb approach for many years, and am now on year 7 and starting to fail after initially good results. I have read numerous books and scientific papers on low carb, including Dr. Atkins's work. I still advocate low carb as the diet of choice.

As for doing something wrong, of course I am, I'm not sticking to it, and that is the whole problem.

Why don't I stick to it? This is a multi-factorial answer but mainly after 7 years I'm tired of constantly monitoring my diet, the expense of low carb eating, and the limitations it places on me.

Everyone has their own reasons for not sticking to it, redundancy, death in the family, finances, boredom, inconvenience, etc.

Despite all the theory and stories about how sustainable low carb diets are for every 1000 people who start them, only a few will still do the diet properly for the rest of their lives. I know all the theory about changing your eating habbits, but unfortunately the majority fail.

This I guess is the human element.

When we study treatments we look at the lifetime impact it has on a disease. Many treatments work very well theoretically and in controlled environments, but when introduced fail. examples are the contraceptive pill which is only 99% efficient, however if a person followed the instuctions to the letter the efficiancy should be 99.99%. Another example being the treatment of psoriasis with UV light, this works very well but is overall a poor treatment because patients can't comply with attending 3 times a week for 30 mins.

This is shown in the studies. The results of low carb are very good, especially in controlled environments. But studies prove that not enough people have the discipline to committ for longer than a few years, and certainly not for a lifetime. Again, this is the human element but it is of clinical significance in diet as a treatment for the nation's obesity. This isn't theoretical speculation, it's what is actually happening now.

As for the NHS promoting unhealthy diet, I agree totally. The fact that some cereals have the heart foundation logo on the box is alarming in my opinion.

I'm not a sceptic of the low carb approach. If a patient asked me for dietry advice I would recommend low carb very strongly, but the cold facts are this;

I'm 42 years old, 21.5 stones, hypertensive, with an enlarged heart. I've been trying to lose weight very seriously for over 10 years, including 7 years low carb. I, like many others, don't have another 10 years, If I don't do something that works now I will die. Studies show that I have already shortened my life by 15 years. Studies also show that surgery is the only treatment to have an impact on obesity.

Thanks again for all the comments and thoroughly enjoyable debate ... Fizz
 
Dear Fizz thanks for your enlightening last post.
I am 56, 6`4 and April last year 19st 12lbs official.
Now lo Carb and a lot wiser 16st 11lbs and its still coming off

All the symptoms you mention dont include diabetes, and that i guess is the telling point. For us as diabetics and especially those of us who are T2 "Fatties" once you realise the carbs spike blood sugars and the resultant complications that is motive enough. Taking control is an element of will power.
The surveys that you mention that show you are -15yrs to date. Will come true only if let them.
Maybe your approach needs to be amended.

Follow the diet guidelines --- Pile the wieght on ------- GeT Diabetes --------Have a few life changing moments and tantrums------------- Learn the awful truth----Do something about.------ research and learn.

Maybe we have an advantage you dont, being diabetics avoiding blindness,invalidity or heart attack etc is a very real motivator.

Should you choose to browse the threads you will see that most of us are trying to at least lose the weight and get control of Blood Sugars and at best reduce the medications because we realise that its in our own selfish best interest which i believe is the best motivator of all.

I for one dont miss the other way

Dave P
 
IanD said:
Obesity is caused by wrong diet.
This is definitely a major contributing factor, but there are other variables too, such as lifestyle, abundance of food, psychological issue, infirmity, metabolic disorders, genetics etc.

IanD said:
Your attitude seems to be that only unhealthy diets are sustainable, but that obesity can be "cured" by surgery. .
Eating what you want when you want is very sustainable. Having to say no to food will always be more difficult.

At the moment surgery is the most effective treatment for obesity. It is proven to be more effective than diet, that isn't just opinion it is shown in research. The differences aren't subtle neither. Surgery is shown to be significantly more effective.

IanD said:
Surely a positive campaign is needed to correct the nation's diet including the public information that EXCESS CARBOHYDRATES CAUSE OBESITY.
I agree totally that the nation needs educating about carbs, and the dangers of low fat diets. But this will not cure obesity, It hasn't helped me nor thousands of others who fall back on bad eating habits eventually. And if carbs were solely to blame everyone would be fat, but they aren't I'm afraid. Some people can put away carbs in abundance, do little exercize and still remain slim. I can see you very proudly wear the low carb hat, and you seem to be mirroring Dr. Atkins opinions almost verbatum (been there). I agree that low carb is the way to eat, but it isn't the revelation you might think it is.

Best wishes .. Fizz
 
Thanks Fizz for an excellent debate. I am sure it has given us all food for thought!! :)
The truth is that no one knows if, 5yrs down the line, we will all be so upbeat and positive about how we manage our diabetes. Please God that we are.
I am not a low carber but follow Rick Gallop's low G.I. Diet and have done for nearly 6yrs. I like to think that this will be my way of life forever, but who knows. My diabetes is under control so why would I want to change things? I may become complacent and let things slide, I may not.
None of us can say that this is forever, low carb , medium carb or low G.I. as we do not have a crystal ball. As you so rightly say, personal circumstances may change our way of thinking. Time will tell.

It does take commitment and there are times I cheat but that is human nature.
Thanks again for your input and I hope you resolve your weight issues by whatever method is appropriate for you.
Regards,Catherine.
 
Fizz - I am a dietitian and work for some GPS as well as a few other things!

My experience with a wide range of people certainly points to the fact that people are just eating and drinking too much.

Looking at food diaries its not one food group - its the lot . After all these years I am still shocked by what people are eating.

It is a whole lifestyle thing - eating too much, drinking too much, alcohol didnt feature much 10 years ago and now it is on every diary, lack of exercise, non physical jobs, too much tv and pcs!, maybe genetics, medication - the list goes on.

I thnk we need to stop blaming fat or carbs - its counter productive and turns people off.

Maybe we need some good old fashioned common sense !

Fizz - I wish you could see th food diaries i have - they make interesting reading!
 
sixfoot said:
Maybe we have an advantage you dont, being diabetics avoiding blindness,invalidity or heart attack etc is a very real motivator.

I can imagine, however, I do have my own motivators too, I have hypertension, an enlarged heart, and fatty liver disease, all caused by obesity.

Just for clarity I'm speaking about the problem of obesity in general. I'm not suggesting the best treatment for people with diabetes is surgery. I just know that if 10,000 people with obesity try low carb dieting, and 10,000 have bariatric surgery, the surgery cohort will have alower BMI and less co-morbidities after 10 years. From an "effective treatment" view surgery is saving more lives at the moment.

I am on board with the low carb approach though, and I am an advocate of a low carb education. Maybe in the future when supermarkets stop filling everything with sugar, and low fat diets are abolished surgery may become less compelling. Until then surgery should be more accessible in my opinion.

Thanks again ... fizz
 
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