Overworked and now under disciplinary

Salvia

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812
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Right, OK. It sounds as if some staff (how many, out of a total of how many) were skiving off (how often) and not doing their jobs properly or fully. You didn't pick up on this because you didn't meet with them often enough to realise what was happening. My question remains - how did that bring the org into disrepute? Financially? Contractually? Be clear what you're facing.

It also sounds as if you have already admitted to the investigation meeting, that you didn't do your job as well as it might have been done. It is always easier to deal with the stuff that's immediate & on our doorstep, than the stuff that's further away. You've been open & honest about this, both to your own manager and to the investigation - that's why I think you might be a scapegoat here. Who are the people who will take the disciplinary hearing? Are they regional or national officers of the charity? Are they people who will know you or know something of you and your reputation?

Some things that you might want to think about: What was the distance between the two areas - what travelling time is allowed within your contracted hours, how were you expected to allocate your working hours between the two sections? Is your job a new position? If not, why did the previous occupant leave (is there any relevance to your situation). What supervision is provided in other areas, how many supervisors to how many staff over what geographical locations, are all team managers on the same hours with equitable workloads & staffing. Competition is fierce within the charitable sector for care provision & it can be a lucrative business, but they cut costs to the bone & expect staff to give the earth for very little recompense (at least, that's the message I hear from those in service).

Be truthful, yes, but don't continue to take the blame (sounds as it you might have taken this approach so far) - and most definitely don't expect them to be fair, just, or care one jot about you or what's right. There aint no sentiment in business. Plus remember - getting rid of you now saves them money (potentially). They can sack you without pay or compensation (because it's gross misconduct which can result in instant dismissal), you will never acquire 2 years service, so can't ever get employment rights with them. They can start again with someone else, and get rid of them before they reach 2 years service, and keep on doing that for ever. Think about it. If you can, find out what is the average length of service of team managers, or other managers. Ask the questions. Raise these with a solicitor (if you use one) to see whether it's worth pursuing as part of a defence. Check whether this question could be raised under the freedom of information legislation.
 

poppet35

Member
Messages
16
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Right, OK. It sounds as if some staff (how many, out of a total of how many) were skiving off (how often) and not doing their jobs properly or fully. You didn't pick up on this because you didn't meet with them often enough to realise what was happening. My question remains - how did that bring the org into disrepute? Financially? Contractually? Be clear what you're facing.

It also sounds as if you have already admitted to the investigation meeting, that you didn't do your job as well as it might have been done. It is always easier to deal with the stuff that's immediate & on our doorstep, than the stuff that's further away. You've been open & honest about this, both to your own manager and to the investigation - that's why I think you might be a scapegoat here. Who are the people who will take the disciplinary hearing? Are they regional or national officers of the charity? Are they people who will know you or know something of you and your reputation?

Some things that you might want to think about: What was the distance between the two areas - what travelling time is allowed within your contracted hours, how were you expected to allocate your working hours between the two sections? Is your job a new position? If not, why did the previous occupant leave (is there any relevance to your situation). What supervision is provided in other areas, how many supervisors to how many staff over what geographical locations, are all team managers on the same hours with equitable workloads & staffing. Competition is fierce within the charitable sector for care provision & it can be a lucrative business, but they cut costs to the bone & expect staff to give the earth for very little recompense (at least, that's the message I hear from those in service).

Be truthful, yes, but don't continue to take the blame (sounds as it you might have taken this approach so far) - and most definitely don't expect them to be fair, just, or care one jot about you or what's right. There aint no sentiment in business. Plus remember - getting rid of you now saves them money (potentially). They can sack you without pay or compensation (because it's gross misconduct which can result in instant dismissal), you will never acquire 2 years service, so can't ever get employment rights with them. They can start again with someone else, and get rid of them before they reach 2 years service, and keep on doing that for ever. Think about it. If you can, find out what is the average length of service of team managers, or other managers. Ask the questions. Raise these with a solicitor (if you use one) to see whether it's worth pursuing as part of a defence. Check whether this question could be raised under the freedom of information legislation.

The staff are on contracted hours, but if a customers passes away or moves then it would be my job to look at taking on new work or restructuring rotas to ensure all staff continue to meet their hours.
So they could be paid for 25 hours but only working 18 perhaps until I bring them back up with new work. So it looks like they consider this to be financial, there haven't been any care contracts broken whilst I've been in post.
The disciplinary meeting will be run by one of the executives - that's policy for a managers disciplinary. They do know a little of me and my work. My office is within head office so it's not like I'm just complete unknown to them. The other attendees will be a manager from another service within the company who heard the original investigation and HR officer to provide administrative function.

My job is not a new post and most interestingly the previous manager left due to unrealistic workload.

When I was interviewed the role was put forward as a flexible role, I was very clearly told I could work the 30 hours anyway I liked - I could be home based, work whichever days as long as the job was done.
The organisation has different services and it is widely recognised internally that the community team is the most difficult in terms of staffing and how the staff are dispersed to manage as opposed to say a residential home.
My two areas were nearly an hour between so not massive distance but certainly made it incredibly difficult to physically get there to meet people.
 
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Salvia

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812
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Prediabetes
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Diet only
The staff are on contracted hours, but if a customers passes away or moves then it would be my job to look at taking on new work or restructuring rotas to ensure all staff continue to meet their hours.
So they could be paid for 25 hours but only working 18 perhaps until I bring them back up with new work.

Questions: How were you expected to obtain new work whilst at the same time running two teams on a day to day basis. What time percentage is to be spent on getting new work. Where were you expected to find this new work from. What is the average lead time between losing a client and getting a new one up and running. For how long were some of the staff paid for hours not worked (& for which I assume the company received no fees from clients to cover their pay). How do these figures compare to those of other sections/team managers in a similar position.

So it looks like they consider this to be financial,

Don't assume. Don't put words in their mouths. Don't make it easy for them. Ask them to specify the charge and the failings in job performance that you are required to answer. Anything less is not acceptable and is inherently unfair - why should you have to guess what they are alleging.

The disciplinary meeting will be run by one of the executives - that's policy for a managers disciplinary. They do know a little of me and my work. My office is within head office so it's not like I'm just complete unknown to them. The other attendees will be a manager from another service within the company who heard the original investigation and HR officer to provide administrative function.

Executive - ok. What is the role of the manager from the other service within the company? If it is part of the panel, that manager is not objective and independent - they already have heard evidence and have reached a conclusion - that you are guilty. They cannot be unbiased, so your rep should argue that they should not be on the panel. If their role is to present the management case, then they should not be on the panel, but separate from it. By the way, the disciplinary panel should be more than one person, usually; the executive alone is not good practice. Perhaps ask your rep (TU or legal bod) to object to the service manager on the grounds that they have previous involvement and therefore cannot be independent.
If the HR officer is there for admin only, then that is pretty much an antiquated way of doing things, and not helpful to you or anyone else. But - they should ensure that you are treated fairly and have full information. If it is only a junior officer (not an HR Manager) then they could be there in little more than a secretarial role. In my day it was very much an executive role, and I was always most definitely a full member of any panel, with full voting and equitable status to anyone else present, and had a lot to say (as you might have guessed).

When disciplinary hearings are conducted, I would normally expect there to be a separate management rep to present the case against you to the disciplinary panel (usually would be whoever conducted the investigation).

The fact that you are head-office based is helpful in that they will know that you worked long and difficult hours. You will have to make much of the times you told you own manager of the difficulties of coping with the full range of the job and the stress this had on you and your home life, and the fact you brought those to the manager's attention. Carefully review the whole of the investigation process, and challenge any part of it that is not a "full and fair investigations into all aspects of the matter".

My job is not a new post and most interestingly the previous manager left due to unrealistic workload.

Use that in your defence. Also to challenge the fairness of the investigation - I still think you're a scapegoat here.

When I was interviewed the role was put forward as a flexible role, I was very clearly told I could work the 30 hours anyway I liked - I could be home based, work whichever days as long as the job was done.
The organisation has different services and it is widely recognised internally that the community team is the most difficult in terms of staffing and how the staff are dispersed to manage as opposed to say a residential home.
My two areas were nearly an hour between so not massive distance but certainly made it incredibly difficult to physically get there to meet people.

Agreed. Clearly it is more difficult to manage people who are widely dispersed compared to those based in one place. Again, use that and ask questions of the management representative when they are putting their case forward to the disciplinary panel. Analyse what you did to manage you time. How did you split your days between the two teams, what rotas did you set up for them, for yourself. Lay it all out so you can see what you did and how you did it. Then at the disciplinary hearing, when it comes to your turn to question the management rep, your TU rep/legal bod can ask them what is wrong with your work methods, how you could have done it differently, what else did they expect you to do, etc. etc.

Be honest with yourself -could you have done more, or were you just too exhausted to summon the energy to do so. If the latter, then they have responsibility under health & safety at work laws - again, your TU rep or legal bod could use this to good advantage. At the very least, a warning and further training should be on the cards, rather than dismissal. This is, after all, a first offence.

At the end of the day - I'd tell them to stuff it, and ****** off anyway. Frankly, an outfit not worth working for - but - you may need a reference in the future, so (something) may be the better part of valour. (can't remember the word :rolleyes:)

ps - sorry about the length, once I start can't seem to stop. it's 1.05am so I'm off to bed now. Reflect on all this lot and come up with your plan. Good luck & All the best.

Edited to clarify quotes.
 
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andcol

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my argument is that I have been working 7 days a week
Not sure this is legal for a start. I will make one suggestion. Go and get an employment lawyer to attend the meeting, it will be money well spent.
 
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Sid Bonkers

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poppet35

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Not sure this is legal for a start. I will make one suggestion. Go and get an employment lawyer to attend the meeting, it will be money well spent.

It's not I know, however as ACAS very helpfully pointed out that was due to my conscience and not my employer enforcing this - the option to have a day off would have meant being unable to fulfill a care contract - rightly or wrongly I if I could turn round and say by the way no one will come tomorrow to do your shopping and help you shower then I am very much in the wrong job.
 

poppet35

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Questions: How were you expected to obtain new work whilst at the same time running two teams on a day to day basis. What time percentage is to be spent on getting new work. Where were you expected to find this new work from. What is the average lead time between losing a client and getting a new one up and running. For how long were some of the staff paid for hours not worked (& for which I assume the company received no fees from clients to cover their pay). How do these figures compare to those of other sections/team managers in a similar position.



Don't assume. Don't put words in their mouths. Don't make it easy for them. Ask them to specify the charge and the failings in job performance that you are required to answer. Anything less is not acceptable and is inherently unfair - why should you have to guess what they are alleging.



Executive - ok. What is the role of the manager from the other service within the company? If it is part of the panel, that manager is not objective and independent - they already have heard evidence and have reached a conclusion - that you are guilty. They cannot be unbiased, so your rep should argue that they should not be on the panel. If their role is to present the management case, then they should not be on the panel, but separate from it. By the way, the disciplinary panel should be more than one person, usually; the executive alone is not good practice. Perhaps ask your rep (TU or legal bod) to object to the service manager on the grounds that they have previous involvement and therefore cannot be independent.
If the HR officer is there for admin only, then that is pretty much an antiquated way of doing things, and not helpful to you or anyone else. But - they should ensure that you are treated fairly and have full information. If it is only a junior officer (not an HR Manager) then they could be there in little more than a secretarial role. In my day it was very much an executive role, and I was always most definitely a full member of any panel, with full voting and equitable status to anyone else present, and had a lot to say (as you might have guessed).

When disciplinary hearings are conducted, I would normally expect there to be a separate management rep to present the case against you to the disciplinary panel (usually would be whoever conducted the investigation).

The fact that you are head-office based is helpful in that they will know that you worked long and difficult hours. You will have to make much of the times you told you own manager of the difficulties of coping with the full range of the job and the stress this had on you and your home life, and the fact you brought those to the manager's attention. Carefully review the whole of the investigation process, and challenge any part of it that is not a "full and fair investigations into all aspects of the matter".



Use that in your defence. Also to challenge the fairness of the investigation - I still think you're a scapegoat here.



Agreed. Clearly it is more difficult to manage people who are widely dispersed compared to those based in one place. Again, use that and ask questions of the management representative when they are putting their case forward to the disciplinary panel. Analyse what you did to manage you time. How did you split your days between the two teams, what rotas did you set up for them, for yourself. Lay it all out so you can see what you did and how you did it. Then at the disciplinary hearing, when it comes to your turn to question the management rep, your TU rep/legal bod can ask them what is wrong with your work methods, how you could have done it differently, what else did they expect you to do, etc. etc.

Be honest with yourself -could you have done more, or were you just too exhausted to summon the energy to do so. If the latter, then they have responsibility under health & safety at work laws - again, your TU rep or legal bod could use this to good advantage. At the very least, a warning and further training should be on the cards, rather than dismissal. This is, after all, a first offence.

At the end of the day - I'd tell them to stuff it, and ****** off anyway. Frankly, an outfit not worth working for - but - you may need a reference in the future, so (something) may be the better part of valour. (can't remember the word :rolleyes:)

ps - sorry about the length, once I start can't seem to stop. it's 1.05am so I'm off to bed now. Reflect on all this lot and come up with your plan. Good luck & All the best.

Edited to clarify quotes.

Thank you, your advice has been terrific, whatever the outcome it is not an employer I would return to
 

Chook

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Apart from your employment rights people have already discussed above, may I suggest that you take this opportunity to look around for a new job. No matter what the outcome of the current problem, it will be horrible for you to work there again and they will always be looking for a way to get rid of you.

I have worked for many years in a very similar occupation as you (care home situations) and also for a charity and they have absolutely no consideration for their staff.
 

col101

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Sorry if someone has already suggested but worry checking if you have legal cover through home insurance or elsewhere. Good luck with it
 
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ickihun

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Thank you. We have had the investigatory meeting and they have decided to go ahead with the disciplinary hearing. I've gone over my contract and the disciplinary policy with a fine tooth comb as I was horrified that they believed I may have committed gross misconduct.

The charges are "serious acts or omissions on the part of the employee which compromise the integrity of the organisation or bring it into disrepute financially or contractually will be dealt with as Gross Misconduct".

However - I was open and honest with my manager that I could not keep up with my workload due to a lack of community support staff (I am the manager of a team of carers) hence my going to her in floods of tears completely unable to cope and a month later officially resigning citing my health and the safety of customers.
Basically I go out and provide support in a morning, fit in an hour or two in office, go back out and provide lunch support, back in office for couple of hours and back out working in community til 8/9 pm ish.
Ask their hr what duty of care they are showing towards your workload.
Take this Iack of duty of care as your backbone of your counterclaim hun.
See a solicitor.
Goodluck!
 
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ickihun

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Sorry if someone has already suggested but worry checking if you have legal cover through home insurance or elsewhere. Good luck with it
Once you have a union involved it changes the dynamics. Solicitor may send you back to union as its their call first.
 

Catlady19

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Copied:- Executive - ok. What is the role of the manager from the other service within the company? If it is part of the panel, that manager is not objective and independent - they already have heard evidence and have reached a conclusion - that you are guilty. They cannot be unbiased, so your rep should argue that they should not be on the panel. If their role is to present the management case, then they should not be on the panel, but separate from it. By the way, the disciplinary panel should be more than one person, usually; the executive alone is not good practice. Perhaps ask your rep (TU or legal bod) to object to the service manager on the grounds that they have previous involvement and therefore cannot be independent

@poppet35 - when I worked for a charity, I am sure you were allowed an independent intermediary to be involved? Someone who doesn't know you or have anything to do with the organisation. Might be worth checking?
 

Salvia

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Prediabetes
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Diet only
It's not I know, however as ACAS very helpfully pointed out that was due to my conscience and not my employer enforcing this - the option to have a day off would have meant being unable to fulfill a care contract - rightly or wrongly I if I could turn round and say by the way no one will come tomorrow to do your shopping and help you shower then I am very much in the wrong job.

I disagree with ACAS. By ignoring your complaints and distress about overwork and having to do extra hours above your 30hr p.w. they tacitly condoned what was going on, and they are therefore responsible. In my view they 'enforced' this by omission & neglect because they did nothing to ease your situation. Did you sign a waiver agreeing to work above the 48hrs p.w. (course not, you're only employed for 30hrs!)

Added: I've just had another thought (as you can see, I'm back into attack mode - & I hope that after all that I & others have said, that's where you are now)
Your solicitor could very well use this situation in your defence. You could so easily have let that client go unattended, unshowered, and unfed because no shopping. By your actions you stoutly defended your employer, and ensured that their contract with that client was fulfilled as required. Far from bringing them into disrepute, you actively supported and defended them, to your own considerable detriment. Ask your solicitor to make a big issue out of this, and any other examples that you can remember.

What would have been their attitude and actions if you had left that client without support - what penalty would they have suffered for a failure to deliver their contract (not your contract) as specified? Turn their own hypocracy back on them.

Another thought: could you have moved staff between the two groups (acknowledging the travel distance)? If yes, why didn't you do so, to cover situations like this, even if only for a short term. Would such transfers have helped use up the unoccupied hours referred to in one of the posts earlier? If you could have transferred staff, but didn't, why didn't you do so? If you couldn't transfer staff, why not? You may need to know the contents of their employment contracts.
 
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Johnjoe13

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Doesnt surprise me in the slightest http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11435754/32-charity-bosses-paid-over-200000-last-year.html

Dont have any advice but wish you the best of luck at your hearing @poppet35


I think this is where our country has ended up with worse to come in the future, these people are just parasites along with all those NHS managers and CCG employees. This country has become a gravy train for the lot of them, and of course they are led by the shining example of our MP's and Lords, oh and let us not forget the gob S**** in our now privatised utilities. Better shut up else I digress from the OP and the situation they are in
 
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Oldvatr

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Thank you, they are very careful to follow procedures to the letter but as I've only recently joined my union they can only advise over the phone and cannot attend the meeting with me. I will make enquiries regarding solicitors tomorrow
Contact social services and ask them about advocacy. Most have access to legal representatives who offer free advice, and who will attend meetings with you.
 
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clanders

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I'm wondering anyone can offer advice regarding my employment - I have been suspended pending investigation into allegations of gross misconduct - my argument is that I have been working 7 days a week despite the job being advertised at 30 hours per week and as a result have become exhausted and unable to fulfil my tasks fully. It's not until now that I've been off for few days and looked back and realised how badly I've taken care of myself whilst working. I'm not denying that I haven't worked to standards my employer set and that I set myself but I knew that I was failing and so have actually quit twice and been persuaded to stay by my line manager
Hi Poppet. If not in a union then solidarity will let you join after disciplinary action has started. You will probably be dismissed if the charge is gross misconduct. A recent legal case, with a teacher suffering from cystic fibrosis, found in favour of the employee. He showed an 18 rated film to 16 year olds and he was sacked for gross misconduct. He argued he was stressed due to short staffing and his health was damaged, He was successful (Grosser v York County Council) If you have been working in the healthcare sector get out of it - and good luck
 

clanders

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Thank you - I have done, unfortunately both they and ACAS have pretty much said because I've been in post less than two years there's not a lot that can be done.
You can get them for discrimination - diabetes counts as a disability - that's what I am doing Poppet
 
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