Pesky dawn phenomenon

[Ian DP]

Wish mine would drop...still getting high 7's some mornings. I'm thinking of trying exercise before bed....but I already exercise between lunch and dinner and don't want to change that.Hoping I have energy for something else like a walk round the block.

Exercise before bed works for me..... Always after exercising my BG is lower, And whatever my BG is at bedtime it is always around 0.5 higher in the morning..... So the lower it is at bedtime the lower it will be in the morning.

What really puzzles / annoys me is that my BG is always higher 4 hrs after dinner (bedtime) than it is 2 hrs after dinner (protein I guess, and yet I have very little protein at dinner, all my protein is breakfast and lunch).

59, 9months LADA, no meds or insulin yet, following dr Bernstein diet.

 

[Bluetit1802]

It's dropped!

Suddenly, and for absolutely no reason that I can work out, my 'on waking' has stepped down a chunk.

Last week, and for months, it has been in the 6.5-7.5

This week it has been consistently 5.8-6.3

Scratching head (but not complaining!)

Mine did exactly the same back in May, at the same time my weight loss reached 17% body weight. It simply jumped down from the mid 6's to the 5's virtually over night. Since then I've had no DP and am generally flat over night with no food (just water) and no exercise between 7pm meal and getting out of bed. The only other explanation I have is that I stopped taking my statins about the same time.

 

[Loobles]

What really puzzles / annoys me is that my BG is always higher 4 hrs after dinner (bedtime) than it is 2 hrs after dinner (protein I guess, and yet I have very little protein at dinner, all my protein is breakfast and lunch).
.

Same for me. I did a little experiment yesterday...

I had pork (120g) and potatoes (150g) and after 2 hrs my BG was 5.5 (lowest it had been all day). 3 hrs later it was 6.5 and when I woke up it was 7.6, Now I had suspected DP, but last night's experiment suggests it's probably more related to late carbohydrate conversion from the protein. The annoying thing is that this seems to be catching me out all the time and I don't even eat a high protein diet. Nutritional calculators suggest I eat 104g/day protein, but I normally only eat 80 ish. I wonder if I'm just more sensitive to the protein rise because my insulin sensitivity is rubbish. Hopefully once I've lost more weight (currently at 7% lost) that situation should improve and my morning readings will come down. To be honest, it's annoying me now, so I think I'm going to cut back on the morning readings a bit...I think I've done most of my experimenting now LOL

 

[sanguine]

Now now Loobs, we know that annoyance leads to frustration, stress and higher BGs! Sometimes we just need to go with the flow a bit as we learn more about our systems. (You remember what that nice DN said, you mustn't test, you'll only upset yourself!).

 

[cold ethyl]

I try not to worry too much about my fasting readings as they are the ones I seem to have least control over being affected by stress, sleeping pattern, hormones as well as the things I can control. I think mine are going down( hard to tell with the batch of strips from hell) as I've lost weight so hoping that when it's all shifted I'll be nearer the 5s than 6s.

 

[Loobles]

Now now Loobs, we know that annoyance leads to frustration, stress and higher BGs! Sometimes we just need to go with the flow a bit as we learn more about our systems. (You remember what that nice DN said, you mustn't test, you'll only upset yourself!).

Oh I know...if only the medical establishment knew this and did what they could to save us from ourselves LOL.
It seems you know me too well already!

 

[Loobles]

I try not to worry too much about my fasting readings as they are the ones I seem to have least control over being affected by stress, sleeping pattern, hormones as well as the things I can control. I think mine are going down( hard to tell with the batch of strips from hell) as I've lost weight so hoping that when it's all shifted I'll be nearer the 5s than 6s.

You're so right, I've also noticed that sress, poor sleeping and hormones all affect my BG...by quite a bit too. I think I've been getting a bit too impatient for results; I'll be honest I did expect to be seeing better readings by now (with my fasting BG anyway) but I think now I understand why the doc I saw in occupational health said it would probably take close to a year to see big improvements in my insulin sensitivity and BP.

If only patience grew on trees

 

[Indy51]

I sometimes wonder whether Type 2 wasn't sent to us control freaks as a life lesson that not everything is controllable. It's certainly turned out to be the case for me - nothing I do with diet or exercise seems to stop what seems to be runaway gluconeogenesis/liver dumps

 

[Loobles]

I sometimes wonder whether Type 2 wasn't sent to us control freaks as a life lesson that not everything is controllable. It's certainly turned out to be the case for me - nothing I do with diet or exercise seems to stop what seems to be runaway gluconeogenesis/liver dumps

Oh Indy, I agree completely! I must admit I do have an inner control freak LOL

 

[speters33w]

I am new to this forum, and to Diabetes (T2). I was diagnosed a month ago after my first physical in 9 years. I'm guessing I won't get much sympathy here about that.
The doctor has me taking 2000 mg Metformin with dinner, and it is working VERY well.
A few days into my treatment also I started taking a diabetes support supplement and 200 ug Chromium Complex and noticed immediate results with those. Though now if I forget the supplement it seems to have no effect on my BG, I might see what happens if I stop the Chromium. If naught I might save money and use it only if my BG rises again for unexplained reasons, could have been a deficiency and maybe I am no longer deficient.
Really my BG is starting to be under good control (though still higher than it should be) EXCEPT IN THE MORNING, where I am often hyper.
I have tested several times at night and there are no hypo readings so it is Dawn Phenomenon.
I've tried nuts, pumpkin seeds, a slow releasing carb rice (Laxmi Basmati for Diabetics,) cranberry vinegar, nut butters, etc. I haven't tried the string cheese thing yet, but I might - though I'll probably use mozz balls with really good vinegar and herbs because I'm a snob like that.
I did notice I had good morning readings after the following:
1) After an early dinner of chicken, regular run of the mill high carb rice casserole with cheese, garden salad with italian dressing, and two pints of US made Belgian witbier (Dogfish Head Namaste).
2) After a most excellent dinner of baked cod and methi bhaji (an Indian dish) - I love my wife, she is such a good cook - and one pint of Belgian witbier.
and
3) The morning after the terrible decision to eat Mexican fast food around 4:00 PM, my BG was terrible the entire evening and I dared not eat anything for the rest of the evening and into the night but my BG was good in the morning.
While my BG is getting under good control the rest of the day, in the morning it is terrible. The three examples above are the only times I've had good numbers in the morning.
So, I'm trying to convince my wife it's the witbier, but she's not buying it.
What do you think is going on here?
Save for the meal of cod these should be terrible dinners for a diabetic, and with the cod I had two pints... also not really good for a diabetic or Metformin user.

 

[Brunneria]

Hi and welcome!

What sort of morning readings are you getting?
And how do they compare with your usual pre meal and post meal readings?

Have you tried exercise?

I'm still finding good results with the Brazil nuts taken first thing, stopping my BG from rising furthr. But NOTHING has stopped my BG from rising during my sleep. So I think it's hormonal, and inevitable, with me.

So, is that avatar a 7 legged spider?

 

[this is too difficult two]

What do you call terrible? The amount of the food is also important.

 

[jay hay-char]

So, I'm trying to convince my wife it's the witbier, but she's not buying it.

Could be - p'raps your liver is too busy processing the alcohol to chuck out any glucose Actually I'm being serious - it could be that.

Don't worry about people lacking sympathy; I am sure that a number of us on here have had a sneaking suspicion at the back of our minds but been too lazy/scared/obtuse to do anything about it.

Ask me how I know this ......

 

[speters33w]

Avatar is a tick. I pick up those buggers for free. Cheaper than lancets.

Like I said, readings are still high, but the chart shows a steady decrease in BG after meals.
I don't nomally test before meals except for breakfast (morning sugar). I test 2 hours after each meal.

MORNING READINGS:
27-Sep 11.5
28-Sep 12.9
29-Sep 9.4
30-Sep 6.9 After Cod, Methi Bhaji, and a Pint
2-Oct 9.7
3-Oct 8.3
4-Oct 7.9 After Mexican Fast Food
5-Oct 9.3
6-Oct 10.8
7-Oct 7.2 After Chicken, Rice Cassorole, and two Pints
8-Oct 9.7
9-Oct 8.4
10-Oct 10.5
14-Oct 9.7
16-Oct 11.7
17-Oct 8.1
19-Oct 9
20-Oct 9.2
21-Oct 8.7
22-Oct 10.2
23-Oct 8.1
AVG 10.8 End of September after meals
AVG 8.4 Now after meals

 

[speters33w]

I should have mentioned, my daily after meal average BG is scewed by after breakfast.
Most of my after lunch and after dinner readings are now normal for non-diabetics.

I'd have to punch the numbers in to a spreadsheet because my program calculates overall before and after meal averages.

 

[speters33w]

Could be - p'raps your liver is too busy processing the alcohol to chuck out any glucose Actually I'm being serious - it could be that.

I'll need to mention that to her. I TOLD her my liver was causing the problem and the best solution was to try and kill it!

 

[Ian DP]

I have found a few ways of lowering my pre breakfast BG readings.

1). Exercise before bed. If I eat at 7pm and test at 9pm I pretty much know that my morning BG will be around 1.00 higher than that at 9pm. However, if I exercise (ex cycle in front of TV), then test half hour after I have finished, my BG levels will be lower and then they only rise a very small amount during the night.....It always works..... For me, lowering my pre breakfast BG levels by between 0.5 and 1.0, always.

2). Check BG levels immediately I get up, then eat something (it does not need to be a lot). If I check my BG levels as soon as I get up, then not eat and check half hour or an hour later, they rise by around a point or more.

3). If I awake early I now get up, rather than lie in..... Eg. If I plan to get up at 8am but awake at 7am I now get up and test and eat something. I have on occasion awoke at 6am and tested, gone back to bed for an hour or two, but not slept then tested and it has always been a point or so higher...... If on the other hand I have woken at 6am tested gone back to bed and slept then tested again there has always been just a very small increase..... I think the body, when it first awakes, starts getting ready for the day, and this increases BG levels quickly (which a non diabetic system copes with, but we can't..... My thinking!!!!).

That's my observations.

Strangely, if I exercise immediately after eating my BG levels drop, but then gradually increase until I go to bed and then I see no benefit or very little to my pre breakfast BG reading..... Exercise (for me) has to be prior to bed!!!!.

 

[Bluetit1802]

@speters33w

Do you test before you go to bed, to see how much you are rising during the night?

Why don't you test before meals? In my opinion, after meal readings are meaningless unless you know what the before meal was. You don't know what the rise was, and if you don't know that, how are you learning from this?

Also, an average of 8.4 after meals is a bit high. An odd meal, yes, but to be at that level after every meal isn't doing you any favours.

I believe you would do better to forget your morning fasting reading for the moment and concentrate on getting your day time levels down. The fasting reading will then follow. Try testing immediately before you eat, then at 2hrs after your first bite. Look at the rise and try to keep it under 2mmol/l. If it is more than that, something in that meal needs attention, either by reducing the portion or avoiding it. Work on the food/drink and your morning levels will come down.

 

[speters33w]

@speters33w
Also, an average of 8.4 after meals is a bit high. An odd meal, yes, but to be at that level after every meal isn't doing you any favours.
.

The average so far this week of after lunch and after dinner readings is 7.4.
The after breakfast readings screw up the average because of the high morning sugar.
The drop in averages is almost linear, EXCEPT FOR MORNING so far - no plateau so for now I'm expecting it to continue that way.

I can start testing before meals also, it will help me lose weight anyway because I'll have to use my grocery money for test strips.

These are my after lunch and after dinner readings since diagnosed with weekly averages.

Date Reading Weekly Average
26-Sep 11.0
. 9.5 10.3
27-Sep 8.8
. 6.9
. 8.9
. 13.2
. 13.7
. 8.9 10.1
1-Oct 9.0
. 9.7
. 9.7
. 10.6
. 14.0
. 13.0
. 14.2
. 8.0 10.8
5-Oct 7.9
. 12.7
. 8.7
. 9.1
. 6.3
. 9.2
. 7.2 8.7
12-Oct 12.0
. 4.1
. 7.3
. 10.2
. 8.6
. 9.8
. 11.5
. 6.0
. 9.2 8.7
19-Oct 7.7
. 8.5
. 5.1
. 8.3
. 7.3
23-Oct 7.2 7.4

 

[speters33w]

I have found a few ways of lowering my pre breakfast BG readings.

1). Exercise before bed. If I eat at 7pm and test at 9pm I pretty much know that my morning BG will be around 1.00 higher than that at 9pm. However, if I exercise (ex cycle in front of TV), then test half hour after I have finished, my BG levels will be lower and then they only rise a very small amount during the night.....It always works..... For me, lowering my pre breakfast BG levels by between 0.5 and 1.0, always.

2). Check BG levels immediately I get up, then eat something (it does not need to be a lot). If I check my BG levels as soon as I get up, then not eat and check half hour or an hour later, they rise by around a point or more.

3). If I awake early I now get up, rather than lie in..... Eg. If I plan to get up at 8am but awake at 7am I now get up and test and eat something. I have on occasion awoke at 6am and tested, gone back to bed for an hour or two, but not slept then tested and it has always been a point or so higher...... If on the other hand I have woken at 6am tested gone back to bed and slept then tested again there has always been just a very small increase..... I think the body, when it first awakes, starts getting ready for the day, and this increases BG levels quickly (which a non diabetic system copes with, but we can't..... My thinking!!!!).

That's my observations.

Strangely, if I exercise immediately after eating my BG levels drop, but then gradually increase until I go to bed and then I see no benefit or very little to my pre breakfast BG reading..... Exercise (for me) has to be prior to bed!!!!.

OK, I got out the spanner and put together my stairstepping machine and exercised before bed. I usually have been hiking in the woods at a brisk pace around lunch for exercise. I also did not lie in this morning.

Readings yesterday were: 5.4 after lunch, 5.3 before dinner (yes I took a before dinner), 6.3 two hours after first bite of dinner, then when my employer called me at 3:00 AM accidentally I tested and read 7.5.

This morning I read 9.0.

I had 1 oz cheese with very little pepper garlic chutney immediately after testing, then a "slow carb" breakfast of brown basmati rice with chicken and exercised on the stairstepper immediately after.

My after breakfast reading (two hours after first bite) was 7.5.

It's a small sample but if this regimen works in the future I can at least get my after breakfast BG down so I'm not starting the day with an uphill battle.

I read in a book by Dr. Bernstein that in cases like mine he tries perscribing 500 mg Glucophage XR immediately before going to bed. Once my other BG during the day is down to more reasonable levels If my morning BG is still high I may talk to my doctor about an adjustment like this. Other than morning the Metformin HCL ER seems to be doing its job well.