Krystyna23040
Expert
- Messages
- 8,528
- Type of diabetes
- Type 2
- Treatment type
- Diet only
I agree with you. My friend who I have known for 40+ years weighs 15 stone and has blood sugars that are on the low side of normal. I was 9at 6lbs when diagnosed with an hba1c of 125.Unfortunately the mantra that weight gain leads to type 2 diabetes is still being trotted out as unchallenged, and no proper trials are even being carried out to challenge that assumption.
Another factor of course is that it's entirely possible (and maybe even enjoyable) to eat LC/Keto for the remainder of one's life. Extreme calorie deprivation not so much.
‘Type 2 Diabetes’ is often used as an umbrella term for anyone showing high blood glucose who isn’t easily and cheaply diagnosed with another type of diabetes. So there are many T1s and T3cs, LADAs, MODYs, drug induced, Bronze diabetics (and others) who are lumped in with those T2s whose insulin resistance and beta cell failure is affected by fat in the liver and pancreas.
While I applaud Professor Taylor’s work, I find it endlessly frustrating that many consider his work to apply to all ‘Type 2s’.
No.
It applies to those people with liver and pancreas fat, whose beta cells can return to function if that fat is removed.
There are many, many people classed as ‘type 2’ for whom weight loss is not going to improve their blood glucose control.
Indeed, the extreme diet often used to achieve such weight loss may be extremely unhelpful, especially to a patient who didn’t need to lose pancreas and liver fat in the first place.
I would like to see more study on the scanning of the liver and pancreas in normal or low BMI T2 diabetics to confirm that they still have fat deposits which could impair metabolic function.
At the moment it seems to be assumed that fat is always the cause, and if you are skinny then there must be "concealed fat" somewhere causing your T2.
If this is proved, fine, develop a protocol for TOFI T2s. Including pancreas and liver scans.
If this is disproved it might stop T2s blaming themselves because however much weight they have lost it obviously isn't enough and they should just try harder.
I think the "remission" formal acknowledgement is a technically important aspect; and linking (without derailing this topic), could and I think should be vital in keeping meat a medicinal treatment (I think it is fair to say the majority on this site under 48 mmol are meat eaters, proving this nutrient is at least as good as others, I think.......). If a survey is performed of Type 2 diabetics who are below the threshold of full blown diabetes, it is easier for observers to understand the generic term of remission. We have a number of interests who want to restrict our choices.I have posted this before here.
According to my GP and a CDE I spoke to at Diabetes Queensland, that there is no such thing a remission or reversed with T2 diabetes in Queensland.
This why I am saying I have my T2 under very good control, now if I start eating rubbish food again I will revert back to where I was nearly three years ago and not under control.
I am a T2 in recovery mode if you like, the same as a alcoholic that has not had a drink for a year or more.
Meat is part of the bodies repair / building kit so eating it is a must, I could not have got into recovery mode eating lettuce and **** alone.I think the "remission" formal acknowledgement is a technically important aspect; and linking (without derailing this topic), could and I think should be vital in keeping meat and a medicinal treatment (I think it is fair to say the majority on this site under 48 mmol are meat eaters, proving this nutrient is at least as good as others, I think.......).
Why meat rather than any other protein?Meat is part of the bodies repair / building kit so eating it is a must, I could not have got into recovery mode eating lettuce and **** alone.
Did you read the bit I quoted of @Mbaker who mentioned meat in his / her post.Why meat rather than any other protein?
I absolutely 100% agree with that. Have been doing LC/keto since mid 2016. Am never hungry and really enjoy my food now. Although I know that I will always have to stay LC/keto it is no hardship.Another factor of course is that it's entirely possible (and maybe even enjoyable) to eat LC/Keto for the remainder of one's life. Extreme calorie deprivation not so much.
Why meat rather than any other protein?
Well we know it only "works" for about a third of participants after 2 years.I wonder what people will say if he proves it works.
Honestly? A theory I do prescribe to for myself at least as I dropped a decent amount of weight early into my journey and achieved remission almost overnight. Considering how shockingly fast o developed type 2 and how many teens are getting that wonderfully attached condition (see: not actually wonderful but a PitA) it has a lot of merit. It really does make me think there are so many pathologies that lead to this dysfunctional state but also Taylor’s work and this that you have presented to us does give off hope that if we do treat ourselves right? There is always a way for our bodies to fight. Thank you for the reminder!Oh! And what does sick fat cells have to do with reversal? My understanding is you have to replace the sick ones with healthy ones, and the lifespan of a fat cell is 10 years. (And that is about healthy eating.)
So how healthy you can get, ie with reversal, remission etc, has to do with how many sick fat cells you have, the time it takes to replace them, and if you can beat the 'complications' of type two in the meantime... (and that is about being physically active? I think so....)
And would account for so much variety of circumstance amongst members.It really does make me think there are so many pathologies that lead to this dysfunctional state.....
I am of the other opinion. To me it was the depletion of the body fat that led to weight loss. On an ultra restricted diet, the body is tricked into thinking starvation is coming, so it starts raiding the body's long term stores, i,e, the lipids it secreted away for that rainy day. First it depletes the muscle stores, which is glycogen. Now glycogenis a mix of stored glucose and water, so depleting this store results directly in significant and fast weight loss as water is removed. This is how most weight loss diets work, indeed the Prof Taylor diet is the Cambridge Plan of the 80's using Optifast shakes and 800 kcal. the DIRECT plan used currently also uses the Cambridge Plan shakes again.
So initial weight loss is not what we term as body fat. Once the muscle stores are depeleted then the body raids the lipids stored in the liver (often blamed for the Dawn Phenomenon or Liver Dump) and when this runs out then the interesting stuff begins. There is a clarion call from the hormones for all good fats to come to defend the flag, so now we see adipose tissues such as the brown cells, and the pancreas and liver give up their remaining fat deposits, This is why prolonged use of this type of diet is not recommended since it leads to protein scavenging if fats are not included. That state is starvation.
Prof Taylor states in the extracted paragraphs in the OP that it is the removal of ALL body fat that does the magic. He also says the diet plan to get there is just a tool and does not have to be ultra low calorie, He used Optifast because it was a recognised diet acceptable to the NHS, and had controlled nutrition which he needed to eliminate confounders from the experiment. In other words, it was convenient.
Sorry Little Bird, it was the use of the word Reveral that we were critquing, not you. That is an emotive term. and since you were aiming this topic at newbies, it was important for us to make it clear that it is not the silver bullet or holy grail that they may be seeking. The work that Prof Taykor did and continues to do may in rime lead to that happy solution, but it is not yet in our hands, But it has given us another tool we can use.
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