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Prof Taylor on the subject of Reversal.

Discussion in 'Diabetes Discussions' started by Little Bird, Jan 25, 2020.

  1. Krystyna23040

    Krystyna23040 Type 2 (in remission!) · Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you. My friend who I have known for 40+ years weighs 15 stone and has blood sugars that are on the low side of normal. I was 9at 6lbs when diagnosed with an hba1c of 125.

    I have to keep to around 20g carbs to keep normalish blood sugars. So I definitely feel that weight gain is not the whole story. I just don't think my my body can cope with carbohydrates. Actually I am apparently 'in remission ' at a higher weight (9st 12lb) than when first diagnosed with T2D.
     
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  2. Caprock94

    Caprock94 · Well-Known Member

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    Agreed on that! I have found that low carb is a MUCH more sustainable way of eating for me than low calorie.
     
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  3. Caprock94

    Caprock94 · Well-Known Member

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    Good points. Not everyone is alike. I know for me, I certainly needed to drop some weight (and change my diet). Weight is not an issue for all.
     
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  4. Jim Lahey

    Jim Lahey I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    To be honest, up to a point, gaining weight, or getting fat, is protective against diabetes. Think of it as excess glucose being safely stored away for another day. If you couldn’t get fat you would become diabetic almost immediately. The metabolic calamity begins when you start running out of capacity to store that energy. Pertinent to the topic, this is when the liver has little choice but to start packing itself and any nearby organs. This whole “fat makes you diabetic” thing is such crooked thinking.
     
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  5. Walking Girl

    Walking Girl Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Newcastle University is currently recruiting for just such a study. Diabetics with BMI of 27 or less (presumably upon diagnosis). The DiRECT study required a BMI of 27 or more, but not over 35. So overweight and obese, but not really morbidly obese. They are also scanning for organ fat in a non-diabetic control group. So, in 3-4 years we’ll have the answer. I wonder what people will say if he proves it works.
     
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  6. Tipetoo

    Tipetoo Type 2 · Expert

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    I have posted this before here.

    According to my GP and a CDE I spoke to at Diabetes Queensland, that there is no such thing a remission or reversed with T2 diabetes in Queensland.

    This why I am saying I have my T2 under very good control, now if I start eating rubbish food again I will revert back to where I was nearly three years ago and not under control.

    I am a T2 in recovery mode if you like, the same as a alcoholic that has not had a drink for a year or more.
     
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  7. Mbaker

    Mbaker Type 2 (in remission!) · Well-Known Member

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    I think the "remission" formal acknowledgement is a technically important aspect; and linking (without derailing this topic), could and I think should be vital in keeping meat a medicinal treatment (I think it is fair to say the majority on this site under 48 mmol are meat eaters, proving this nutrient is at least as good as others, I think.......). If a survey is performed of Type 2 diabetics who are below the threshold of full blown diabetes, it is easier for observers to understand the generic term of remission. We have a number of interests who want to restrict our choices.

    Please consider all who can get a formal "Diabetes in Remission" if you can. For me it doesn't matter if you are an MD, PHD, Activist or whatever, this is hard to argue against:

    Screenshot_20200125-205034_Patient Access.jpg
     
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    #27 Mbaker, Jan 25, 2020 at 8:57 PM
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2020
  8. Tipetoo

    Tipetoo Type 2 · Expert

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    Meat is part of the bodies repair / building kit so eating it is a must, I could not have got into recovery mode eating lettuce and **** alone. :D
     
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  9. lucylocket61

    lucylocket61 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Why meat rather than any other protein?
     
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  10. Tipetoo

    Tipetoo Type 2 · Expert

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    Did you read the bit I quoted of @Mbaker who mentioned meat in his / her post.

    It could well have been the fish, bacon, cheese, eggs, etc that I eat along side the various kinds of meat I go through.
     
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  11. Krystyna23040

    Krystyna23040 Type 2 (in remission!) · Well-Known Member

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    I absolutely 100% agree with that. Have been doing LC/keto since mid 2016. Am never hungry and really enjoy my food now. Although I know that I will always have to stay LC/keto it is no hardship.

    After years of low fat it still feels deliciously wicked to stir fry my my above ground veggies in butter, eat the skin from roasted chicken and have stilton cheese instead of cottage cheese. I could go on but it is making me hungry.
     
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  12. Indy51

    Indy51 Type 2 · Expert

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    Quiet apart from reasons of taste, main reason I always choose animal products for protein is the science of the DIAAS score. Plant proteins don't even come close really, except maybe for soy (which comes with its own problems).

    https://lentein.com/pdcaas-to-diaas-for-a-more-accurate-amino-acid-score/

    Protein is even more important as we age if we're going to avoid osteoporosis, sarcopenia and maintain the lean muscle mass that will keep us on our feet instead of on the floor with broken bones.
     
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    #32 Indy51, Jan 25, 2020 at 10:27 PM
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2020
  13. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Master

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    Well we know it only "works" for about a third of participants after 2 years.
    That's what DiRECT has shown so far from a carefully selected group where remission can still leave them pre -diabetic.
    I still feel that low carb (and even more extreme low carb) shows better success rates and is more sustainable for more people.
     
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  14. AloeSvea

    AloeSvea Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Anyone who has read me over the years in here knows I always bring up the sick fat cell theory of diabetes (type 2). So here I am. This theory also covers Prof Taylor's, re fat deposits. It's not new! It's been around a while.

    'Adiposopathy: sick fat causes high blood sugar, high blood pressure and dyslipidemia'
    https://www.futuremedicine.com/doi/full/10.1517/14796678.1.1.39

    "Accumulating scientific data suggest that in most patients, it is the dysfunction of adipose tissue (adiposopathy) that is the root mechanistic aetiology of abnormalities of glucose metabolism, blood pressure and lipid metabolism (Figure 1). These scientific data are substantiated by the common clinical observation that many patients who gain weight develop these metabolic abnormalities, and if these same patients subsequently lose weight, then these metabolic abnormalities improve or may potentially resolve."


    and

    "However, the relationship between excessive body fat and adverse metabolic consequences is not absolute. Obesity alone does not always result in clinical metabolic disease, and not all patients with these metabolic diseases are overweight. Recent and ongoing research into adipose function and dysfunction seem to be confirming these basic and common clinical observations. Studies are now supporting the concept that it is not the presence of excess adipose tissue alone, adiposity, that is causally related, but rather it is the dysfunction of adipose tissue, here termed ‘adiposopathy’, that should be identified as the root mechanistic aetiology of disorders of glucose metabolism, blood pressure and lipid metabolism."

    I particularly like it as it explains my own diseased state, if I can say that. (Minus the blood pressure issues.)
     
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  15. AloeSvea

    AloeSvea Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Oh! And what does sick fat cells have to do with reversal? My understanding is you have to replace the sick ones with healthy ones, and the lifespan of a fat cell is 10 years. (And that is about healthy eating.)

    So how healthy you can get, ie with reversal, remission etc, has to do with how many sick fat cells you have, the time it takes to replace them, and if you can beat the 'complications' of type two in the meantime... (and that is about being physically active? I think so....)
     
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  16. Caeseji

    Caeseji Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Honestly? A theory I do prescribe to for myself at least as I dropped a decent amount of weight early into my journey and achieved remission almost overnight. Considering how shockingly fast o developed type 2 and how many teens are getting that wonderfully attached condition (see: not actually wonderful but a PitA) it has a lot of merit. It really does make me think there are so many pathologies that lead to this dysfunctional state but also Taylor’s work and this that you have presented to us does give off hope that if we do treat ourselves right? There is always a way for our bodies to fight. Thank you for the reminder!
     
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  17. Listlad

    Listlad Prediabetes · BANNED

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    And would account for so much variety of circumstance amongst members.
     
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  18. Jim Lahey

    Jim Lahey I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I actually believe that, in a sense, it's really rather simple in the majority of cases. Of course there are myriad confounding factors in many, but by-and-large I think it goes like this;
    1. Overconsumption of excessive glucose leads to furious fat generation.
    2. Fat cells run out of capacity to cope (in some this may be obese, in others it may not).
    3. Diabetes.
     
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  19. lucylocket61

    lucylocket61 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    And then you have the people like me, morbidly obese, but with healthy blood pressure and cholesterol, and basically healthy.
     
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  20. Little Bird

    Little Bird · Well-Known Member

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    Thanks @Oldvatr you're a gent. And yes I agree entirely that reversal is indeed an emotive subject and that there are no magic bullets or holy grail. I do think that if someone is Type2 and armed with a sound understanding of the pros and cons, and willing to keep an open mind then it is definitely worth a shot. However, if someone does try it and then fails to reverse their T2, and probably without ever knowing exactly why that it is, then that can lead to a very real disappointment and maybe self blaming, especially if they are considered overweight, and there may little or no help or support for this if the person is doing it on their own, unlike Prof Taylors subjects who had help and support.

    Whilst reversal may be an emotive subject, I personally think the subject of weight loss is an even more emotive one. I have been obese for most of my adult life and have had more than my fair share of fat shaming and blaming, and it is deeply hurtful. I think fat shaming and blaming is abusive and bullying and medical professionals especially should know better!

    I have lost a lot of weight since my diagnosis, over 5 stone, and even if it had not reversed my T2 I would not regret losing that weight for a moment. Before I used to get out of puff just walking up a flight of stairs, now I can practically sprint up one. It was major battle with my belly just to cut my toe nails or tie my shoe laces up! I don’t miss all that stuff for a moment. I have more energy now, I sleep better and am able to be so much more active and involved in life. I feel twenty years younger!

    BUT it was not easy by any stretch. It wasn’t about anything so simple as just finding ways to not feel hungry, for me the difficulty was more about life changes. Losing weight for me involved some major lifestyle changes. I had to learn to give up an entire lifetimes worth of eating habits, rituals and crutches etc. It was psychologically and emotionally hard!

    It is so easy just to say lose weight and you could reverse your type 2 diabetes, but actually doing it is not nearly so easy. If you do try it and it doesn’t work out then there is all too often a sense of failure and shame, and that can be harmful and destructive to a ones self-esteem and self-worth.

    So yes! I couldn’t agree more, it is very important to make it clear that it is not the silver bullet or holy grail that someone may be seeking. You do right Oldvatr!
     
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