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Prof Taylor on the subject of Reversal.

All, this thread is for the purposes of discussing the observations of Professor Taylor in relation to the reversal of diabetes. While Tannith’s pursuit of that in line with her understanding of his methods is related, it is not the subject of this thread and any discussion of it needs to be in a separate thread.

Thanks.
 
Sorry for posting moderator - I answered Lucy's question directly without coming back to the thread first so hadn't seen your request not to discuss metformin & other drugs.
 
I'd just like to put in my two cents. I have lost over 30 kg. I know (from blood tests) that one year before my diagnosis I did not have diabetes. I lost the weight in less than 9 months from my diagnosis. I still have diabetes. I weigh less than I did when I did not have diabetes. Significantly less but still have diabetes. So it is not something that works for all.
 
You go from overweight into the normal weight BMI category which is where I am now. Round about the middle. Not straight from overweight to underweight. Without lab style tests unavailable to ordinary people, there is absolutely no way of telling when you have reached your Personal Fat Threshold other than a normal OGT. Though FBG is a rough guide.
 
I am not aware that any of the Newcastle Diet studies performed OGT tests or had this mid-BMI weight as a target that was either passed or even recorded. Could you post a link to where this is shown to be a target of any of their studies?

There was a EU study (EDIPS) that Newcastle,ac joined in on, but that also only did standard bgl monitoring, not glucose tolerance testing.
 
Taylor likes to bury the bad news in the small print.
The Study preceeding Direct, which I believe was called Counterpoint involved 11 participants & it's results were published in 2011.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00125-011-2204-7#Sec3

There was a 12 week follow up of the participants where a 2 hour OGTT was administered.



So an average BG of 10.3 mmol/L @ 2 hours, just short of the diagnostic threshold of 11.1.
Now in Taylor's defence he may have subjected these patients to the OGTT a bit too early in their recovery.
The 2 Year follow up of Direct showed that it takes 12 months for maximal insulin output to normalise.
I'd anticipate better figures for this cohort had he given them a further 6 months.
 
No they didn't as far as I know. I was responding to Zand's question as to what I was aiming for myself, and where I was. Newcastle study did various technical insulin release measurements which, as I said in an earlier post, are obviously not available to ordinary people. Hence I have to test my success with an OGT which tells me how well I am coping with a standard 75 g carb load and can compare it with a scale saying where I am re normal/prediabetic and diabetic. Once it says I am in the "normal " range I shall conclude from that that I am no longer diabetic and therefore must have reached my Personal Fat Threshold and can stop dieting. PFT has nothing to do with BMI - indeed it is possible to have reached your PFT yet still remain obese, as Prof T has said a number of times. I spoke abut being mid normal BMI because Zand appeared to be suggesting that I was underweight, so I was just saying that I'm not, - anywhere near. Some people are opposed to Prof Taylor's diet because they wrongly think that it makes people underweight. It doesn't. Some even lose their T2 whilst remaining actually obese.
 
@zand asked if you are planning to continue dieting, even if it results in you being underweight. This is not the same thing as you are saying she said. I have not noticed anyone suggesting that the Newcastle Diet makes people underweight. They have expressed concerns about 1000 cals or less, if continued for more than 8 weeks, resulting in malnutrition and other bad health outcomes.

You are clearly not reading what is posted, so i will not engage further on these points.
 
That OGTT is certainly one that is not easily able to be carried out in the kitchen sink at home. Not sure what the arginine infusion does to the equations, and it is not explained in the test method. May be a tracer for either MRI or mass spectrometer. Difficult to correlate the plots to the results since the only reference made is to Fig 2, with no subselect parameter to identify which plot applied.

My take from this study is that they found absolutely no correlation between insulin or glucose secretion/ decay to either
BMI or peripheral sensitivity. ND therefore only affects hepatic function. not muscle IR which is what I suspected all along. It is only half the story.

This study is where the concept of personal fat threshold gets introduced for the first time, and it is presented as a hypothesis explanation, not as a proven fact. It is only what a few people on the team think is going on, I have not seen any other studies either working to evaluate this theory or succeeding in copying these results. So I retain the right to remain highly sceptical for now.

Nor, as I say, this does not stop these techniques from being useful conjunct to our treatment plans IMHO. Getting the pancreas to pump out more insulin is what the sulfonyl drugs did but without the chemicals ( assuming arginine is an experimental marker only)

I would have more faith in these studies if there was proper monitored follow up over a longer time period but that is the major weakness in using this study as a claim for reversal or even remission. Like the Covid vaccines - how long will the protection last? I think it is sad that there is no proper support post-trial since there should IMO be more emphasis on finding a proper maintenance policy rather than a vague "avoid weight gain" which many might interpret as an instruction to keep up the LCal regime going at the 800 kcal level indefinitely which might not be safe and might also bring about eating disorders and obsessions.
 
Thank you for that. Most informative. I hadn't found that one. Yes, I think it is possible for some reason it takes a while after the diet has finished to get back to near normal beta cell function as would be demonstrated by a near normal OGT. "maximal rate of insulin secretion increased from 581 (480–811) pmol/min/m2 at baseline to 736 (542–998) pmol/min/m2 at 5 months, 942 (565–1,240) pmol/min/m2 at 12 months (P = 0.028 from baseline), . I am very much pinning my hopes on that, as after 3 months I have pretty disappointing FBG results. I am consoling myself that FBG is more of an indicator of liver fat loss. However I would have hoped to have had good liver fat loss as well by now. I am dreading finding out that I have left it too long and am now unable to reverse my T2. I can't bear the idea of having it for the rest of my life and potentially having to take drugs with unpleasant side effects. Once I have lost all the weight I safely can on Newcastle and reached my PFT, I would not have the scope to lose any more by doing low carb so it would have to be the dreaded metformin. I am truly happy for you to hear that you have "passed" your OGT .
 
I hope that all the success stories on here of controlling our type 2 diabetes for long periods of time through diet is reassuring to you. Would you share what your experience of low carbing for several months was? Maybe we can collectively find a bearable, even pleasant dietary way forward for you to remain drug free for a long time? I have been doing this for 9 years and enjoy my meals. It took a while to find my ideal food plan, and had lots of help from others on here. May we do the same for you?
 

I feel your distress caused by your diagnosis.
None of us know at the beginning how much of the disfunction we can turn around.
Many have gone too far & underlying genetic factors may also be at play.
No matter how far you have gone LCHF always remains an option.
Metformin is a well reknowned safe drug with other benificial effects, I read of many young healthy doctors actually prescribing it for themselves.
There's no defeat here, it could be part of your solution.

Good luck with your weight loss though if you continue on that path.
 
One important item that seems to be missing from the ND studies is a recording of how many participants were using insulin at baseline, but have managed to come off their insulin by the end of the trial and more importantly, remained off for some time since. All I see is some unspecified numbers were claiming to have reduced their medication which is a bit vague, to say the least.

There are many reports in this forum which, although anecdotal, do nonetheless claim that a Low Carb diet LCHF has allowed insulin users to stop using it. This would be a strong supporting factor in the claim that the LCal diet clearing the fat from the beta cells allowed the beta cells to operate normally - There is evidence that other diets can do this, but ND studies do not seem to regard this as important. To me, this is the essence of what Remission would expect to happen, It was one of the main reasons I chose to try LCHF in the first place.
 
bulkbiker said:
View attachment 48009
Precisely none.. one of the trial exclusion criteria was use of insulin so far as I recall.
http://eprints.gla.ac.uk/153078/13/153078.pdf
Click to expand...
Agree. your insert declares exclusion of current insulin users at baseline as being one of the selection criteria. Does anyone know offhand if Dr. Unwin applied the same to his LC trials in Stockport?

I see DUK are claiming remission from DIRECT
https://www.diabetes.org.uk/researc...MI9tDs1cOr7wIVS9iyCh1S5gibEAAYASAAEgJrRvD_BwE#

Edit to add: Virta Health are conducting trials with Insulin users at baseline, but I cannot get past their paywall. Their trial report data is also a pay per view through AJMC.
 
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By its very nature, at 850 calories a day, the Direct plan will be relatively low carb. Anyone know how many of those calories are carbs?
 
Goonergal said:
I doubt it as his work is via a live GP practice rather than a formal trial, so I imagine anyone willing to try lifestyle changes was eligible.
Click to expand...
I know that Dr. Mosley had one of his TV 'patients' give up insulin on one of the TV programs, but not sure what the eventual outcome was. That was his 8 weeks blood sugar trial from what I remember which was LCal like ND

In Dr Unwin's initial trial report 19 patients started, one dropped out, and the remainder completed. 7 patients came off their medications completely, and most reduced their other meds. No mention of insulin, so it seems none in that trial were users.
 
Thanks, that paper is one of his early studies of 154 patients with T2D. Some 6 participants were insulin users at baseline. The study does not really record the effects on glucose levels or insulin levels but is more interested in hypertension and cholesterol. Consequently, it does not show if any patients reduced or stopped any diabetic medication as a result, but hypertension and cholesterol drug reductions are reported.
 

Apologies. This is the most recent one - does mention some patients coming off insulin:

https://nutrition.bmj.com/content/bmjnph/3/2/285.full.pdf?with-ds=yes
 
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