Prof Taylor on the subject of Reversal.

[Henry7]

Maybe. Maybe not. Hence "At the moment." Luckily, eating pie and chips for a month is not prescribed by doctors prior to blood tests

I've said enough in this topic now. My position is clear. When all's said and done, we all think differently and see life through a different lens. All that matters is that we are happy and healthy. Live long and prosper

I suspect some of us here arn't all that healthy , rumors abound that some of us have diabetes .
There seems to be a lot of resistance on here that weight/ obesity plays a part in diabetes , I don't know for sure either way , but that resistance is marked.

 

[Tannith]

I suspect some of us here arn't all that healthy , rumors abound that some of us have diabetes .
There seems to be a lot of resistance on here that weight/ obesity plays a part in diabetes , I don't know for sure either way , but that resistance is marked.

Unfortunately the resistance to the idea that weight causes T2 means that overweight people who are desperate to prove to their neighbours/family/colleagues etc that their weight did not cause their diabetes, may thus be blinded to the latest research. Taylor's research shows that those of us who were born with a propensity to diabetes only develop it when they exceed their personal fat threshold - that is the level of fat their own bodies can tolerate. This can be well within the "normal" BMI range. The propensity to diabetes is caused by a genetic tendency towards a certain fat storage pattern. Namely the tendency to store excess fat in the visceral organs (including specifically the pancreas) as opposed to safely under the skin. It is this excess fat over and above the Personal Fat Threshold, that triggers the start of T2 And it could be only a tiny bit of excess fat, potentially on a person at the lower end of "Normal" BMI.

 

[Oldvatr]

Unfortunately the resistance to the idea that weight causes T2 means that overweight people who are desperate to prove to their neighbours/family/colleagues etc that their weight did not cause their diabetes, may thus be blinded to the latest research. Taylor's research shows that those of us who were born with a propensity to diabetes only develop it when they exceed their personal fat threshold - that is the level of fat their own bodies can tolerate. This can be well within the "normal" BMI range. The propensity to diabetes is caused by a genetic tendency towards a certain fat storage pattern. Namely the tendency to store excess fat in the visceral organs (including specifically the pancreas) as opposed to safely under the skin. It is this excess fat over and above the Personal Fat Threshold, that triggers the start of T2 And it could be only a tiny bit of excess fat, potentially on a person at the lower end of "Normal" BMI.

I have to disagree strongly with your hypothesis. It is not proven at all. There may be a few cases that it could explain, but most of the evidence I have seen does not support your statements.

It does not explain my case where I was a skinny 9 stone weakling when DX'ed, and I ballooned to about 18 stones in the following 20 years. This is consistent with T2D causing metabolic syndrome.

It does not explain my wife who also went from 8 stone thin to 18 stone dumpling but who did not get diabetes at all.

Both of us lost this excess weight using low carb WOE within a few months, and neither of our underlying conditions was cured. I am still T2D and she did not become T2D. I know other obese persons who are not diabetic, and I know several TOFI who are.

Your hypothesis is too simplistic IMHO and can prompt unhealthy weight loss activity in the search for a cure. The main thing about ND is that it should be undertaken with HCP oversight and limited in duration and severity. The 8-week blood sugar diets are probably safe enough if using the patented formulae and meal replacement technology since that has at least been researched and proven in many diet plans (Optifast, Slimfast, Weight Watchers, Cambridge Diet etc) which is what ND uses

 

[muzza3]

The ND was a very successful "intervention" for me as an obese type 2 and for me basically delivered "as advertised " (see signature). Back then there was much debate as now to "Reversal/Control/Cure/Remission? There is no doubt at the time that the thought of "Reversal" was hugely motivating to get me thru the toughest 8 or so weeks of low calorie eating I have ever experienced.

So it worked for me and many other people and it also hasn't worked for others. There are so many variations in Diabetes and Diabetics you have to read and learn from the actual experience of the good people on here and experiment with control (testing, Medical supervision) to find what can work for you.

With hindsight I think I have settled on Remission. Time will tell for me. but thank you Dr Taylor

 

[Tannith]

I have to disagree strongly with your hypothesis. It is not proven at all. There may be a few cases that it could explain, but most of the evidence I have seen does not support your statements.

It does not explain my case where I was a skinny 9 stone weakling when DX'ed, and I ballooned to about 18 stones in the following 20 years. This is consistent with T2D causing metabolic syndrome.

It does not explain my wife who also went from 8 stone thin to 18 stone dumpling but who did not get diabetes at all.

Both of us lost this excess weight using low carb WOE within a few months, and neither of our underlying conditions was cured. I am still T2D and she did not become T2D. I know other obese persons who are not diabetic, and I know several TOFI who are.

Your hypothesis is too simplistic IMHO and can prompt unhealthy weight loss activity in the search for a cure. The main thing about ND is that it should be undertaken with HCP oversight and limited in duration and severity. The 8-week blood sugar diets are probably safe enough if using the patented formulae and meal replacement technology since that has at least been researched and proven in many diet plans (Optifast, Slimfast, Weight Watchers, Cambridge Diet etc) which is what ND uses

Edited re Goonergal'ss comment
"I have to disagree strongly with your hypothesis. It is not proven at all." said OldVatr
Yes it is proven. It was proven in the Counterpoint study and the proof is available in a number of papers which can be found on the Newcastle Magic Resonance Center Site. These paper have been delivered at international conferences and published in the most eminent scientific journals. And authenticated by eminent diabetologists worldwide. The Direct and Counterpoint studies have been supported by a great deal of other research by Taylor and the numerous other eminent diabetologists he cites in his lengthy bibliographies. Check the site, though it will take you days to read it all.
https://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/diabetes/reversal/#publicinformation

the 5 minute summary.

• Type 2 diabetes is a potentially reversible condition
• If a person has type 2 diabetes, they have become too heavy for their own body (nothing to do with the arbitrary concept of obesity)
• Weight loss of around 15kg is necessary for most people
• This can be achieved using a simple 3-step method: the 1, 2, 3 of diabetes reversal
• Type 2 diabetes is most easily reversed to normal in the early years after diagnosis
• How and why type 2 diabetes happens can now be understood

Read Richard Doughty's personal story Type 2 diabetes and the diet that cured me on the Guardian website, including a video interview of another personal story. You can also read an update from Richard, I reversed my diabetes in just 11 days, on the Mail Online.

Information for your doctor

Download our Information for Doctors (PDF: 227KB). Even though doctors do not like downloaded information from the web, this comes from an internationally recognised diabetes research centre. It is now being put into practice by both NHS England and NHS Scotland. The American Diabetes Association recognises remission of diabetes as an appropriate aim of management.

Publications

Publications relating to reversing diabetes can be found on this page.

 

[Oldvatr]

https://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/diabetes/reversal/#publicinformation

the 5 minute summary.

• Type 2 diabetes is a potentially reversible condition
• If a person has type 2 diabetes, they have become too heavy for their own body (nothing to do with the arbitrary concept of obesity)
• Weight loss of around 15kg is necessary for most people
• This can be achieved using a simple 3-step method: the 1, 2, 3 of diabetes reversal
• Type 2 diabetes is most easily reversed to normal in the early years after diagnosis
• How and why type 2 diabetes happens can now be understood

Read Richard Doughty's personal story Type 2 diabetes and the diet that cured me on the Guardian website, including a video interview of another personal story. You can also read an update from Richard, I reversed my diabetes in just 11 days, on the Mail Online.

Information for your doctor

Download our Information for Doctors (PDF: 227KB). Even though doctors do not like downloaded information from the web, this comes from an internationally recognised diabetes research centre. It is now being put into practice by both NHS England and NHS Scotland. The American Diabetes Association recognises remission of diabetes as an appropriate aim of management.

Publications

Publications relating to reversing diabetes can be found on this page.

This document is a precis of press releases from Newcastle AC and is them banging their own drum. What is clear is that even DIRECT which was aimed at a larger pool of people only achieved 30% remission at 2 years, and had 25% failure in the first year of responders who passed the trial end-criteria. You yourself are still searching for a result even after declaring yourself to be a fan of this diet.

It is to my mind a valid tool we can use and the research did manage to connect some dots, but it is not the only solution and is not suitable for everyone. Although Roy Taylor suggests that it is due to weight loss, and it seems that is involved, it is not proving that T2D can be put into remission simply be 15kg weight loss in a crash diet. We can say it may be related, but is not a guaranteed process by any means.

If you want a more permanent solution to T2D then submit yourself for gastric bypass surgery, but make sure you get the right variant since that too has failure rates in terms of Diabetes management. This was the whole ethos behind the ND diet study - to find a cheaper and noninvasive way of producing the same type of result as the surgery, without a scalpel in sight. It succeeded in doing this, but the NHS is still preferring to offer bypass surgery. Not all dinosaurs are Raptors it seems.

 

[Oldvatr]

If you read what Roy Taylor writes about his Occam Razor that he puts up as the main driving force behind T2diabetes, it is de novogenesis of excess carbohydrates that causes the fat buildup in the first place. This is the fat threshold he blames CARB based that is ingested, i.e. not body fat. So in other words, cut the carbs, and stop the fat build-up. His MRI scans have apparently shown this process occurring in vivo in otherwise nondiabetic patients while he was doing other (pre-ND days) research into obesity.

His work on the ND in Counterpoint and DIRECT studies is merely to find a simple way of stripping out the excess fat that has built up in the pancreas which was causing hyperinsulinemia (aka T2D).

Go back to carbfests, and the problem will recur again.

 

[Oldvatr]

The other thing that his earlier work seems to show is that the de novogenesis he talks about is the process by which our bodies create new lipids from excess blood glucose. It is not the same as the normal lipids produced derived from eating dietary fat as it is smaller and denser and more saturated than the normal lipids. This is the fat that he finds clogging up the pancreas and liver in his ND work.

As an aside, he calls this fat VDLDL, but most endocrinologists refer to it as sdLDL. This also appears to be a major constituent in arterial plaques (which do also attract some normal LDL, but probably not the cause of blockages). So again, there may be a direct link between carb intake to excess with CVD events, caused by sdLDL I have not seen Roy make a declaration on this latter point since it is not his main subject There is a Czech study along this line published last month, but I cannot find it at the moment.

This may be it
https://academic.oup.com/humrep/article/18/5/980/652430

I see that no one else has mentioned vdLDL apart from Roy. Edit to add: I think Roy had to rethink this anacronym since there is already a VLDL lipid carrier that is an intermediate step between Chylomicron and HDL or LDL And one does not want to mention vd in polite society either.

Here is a treatise on sdLDL and Metabolic Syndrome from a Chinese study instead
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6341753/

 

[Goonergal]

https://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/diabetes/reversal/#publicinformation

the 5 minute summary.

• Type 2 diabetes is a potentially reversible condition
• If a person has type 2 diabetes, they have become too heavy for their own body (nothing to do with the arbitrary concept of obesity)
• Weight loss of around 15kg is necessary for most people
• This can be achieved using a simple 3-step method: the 1, 2, 3 of diabetes reversal
• Type 2 diabetes is most easily reversed to normal in the early years after diagnosis
• How and why type 2 diabetes happens can now be understood

Read Richard Doughty's personal story Type 2 diabetes and the diet that cured me on the Guardian website, including a video interview of another personal story. You can also read an update from Richard, I reversed my diabetes in just 11 days, on the Mail Online.

Information for your doctor

Download our Information for Doctors (PDF: 227KB). Even though doctors do not like downloaded information from the web, this comes from an internationally recognised diabetes research centre. It is now being put into practice by both NHS England and NHS Scotland. The American Diabetes Association recognises remission of diabetes as an appropriate aim of management.

Publications

Publications relating to reversing diabetes can be found on this page.

@Tannith you are repeatedly cutting and pasting the same piece of text into threads without directly addressing the points you (presumably) wish to challenge in other posts. This is not helpful.

 

[Tannith]

The other thing that his earlier work seems to show is that the de novogenesis he talks about is the process by which our bodies create new lipids from excess blood glucose. It is not the same as the normal lipids produced derived from eating dietary fat as it is smaller and denser and more saturated than the normal lipids. This is the fat that he finds clogging up the pancreas and liver in his ND work.

As an aside, he calls this fat VDLDL, but most endocrinologists refer to it as sdLDL. This also appears to be a major constituent in arterial plaques (which do also attract some normal LDL, but probably not the cause of blockages). So again, there may be a direct link between carb intake to excess with CVD events, caused by sdLDL I have not seen Roy make a declaration on this latter point since it is not his main subject There is a Czech study along this line published last month, but I cannot find it at the moment.

This may be it
https://academic.oup.com/humrep/article/18/5/980/652430

I see that no one else has mentioned vdLDL apart from Roy. Edit to add: I think Roy had to rethink this anacronym since there is already a VLDL lipid carrier that is an intermediate step between Chylomicron and HDL or LDL And one does not want to mention vd in polite society either.

"Here is a treatise on sdLDL and Metabolic Syndrome from a Chinese study instead"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6341753/

That is a very interesting article indeed. Thank you for posting it OldVatr. It may be helpflul to those T2s who are convinced that their high LDL scores are related to only the safe large fluffy particles of LDL. Whenthis article suggests that T2's may have more of the dangerous variety, the very small particle type.

 

[Tannith]

@Tannith you are repeatedly cutting and pasting the same piece of text into threads without directly addressing the points you (presumably) wish to challenge in other posts. This is not helpful.

I have edited the above post to show why it is relevant. Usually it is obvious why it is relevant eg the poster has asked whether T2 can be reversed as in one recent case, or they have asked about the best diet to reverse T2, as in another. It is just a reference to where to look for the info they need, and the short extract indicates what the link is about. There is not just one way to treat T2, but a variety. My posts enable those who have not heard of the diet related one to make an informed choice , hopefully while newly diagnosed, as this is the window of opportunity we all have to try low cal diet, which may not work, or not as well, after 6 years or so. If they do not find it in time they may never be able to reverse their T2 and heal their beta cells as too many may have ceased to function permanently. They can lower blood sugar with metformin & other drugs, or with low carb, at any time in the course of their illness. There is no urgency about those methods of lowering BG.

 

[Tannith]

This week my FBGs have averaged 4.9. This is a bit disappointing given I have been doing the diet for 3 months now. Fear is creeping up on me that I might be stuck with this dreadful disease for life. For now, all I can do is keep losing more weight in the hope that my failure is caused by not yet getting down to my Personal Fat Threshold.

 

[lucylocket61]

This week my FBGs have averaged 4.9. This is a bit disappointing given I have been doing the diet for 3 months now. Fear is creeping up on me that I might be stuck with this dreadful disease for life. For now, all I can do is keep losing more weight in the hope that my failure is caused by not yet getting down to my Personal Fat Threshold.

How much weight have you lost over the past three months, and are you still overweight?

 

[Tannith]

How much weight have you lost over the past three months, and are you still overweight?

Not enough, obviously, or my FBGs would have gone down to the normal range.

 

[zand]

Not enough, obviously, or my FBGs would have gone down to the normal range.

But how much have you lost in the last 3 months and are you still overweight?

 

[oldgreymare]

This week my FBGs have averaged 4.9. This is a bit disappointing given I have been doing the diet for 3 months now. Fear is creeping up on me that I might be stuck with this dreadful disease for life. For now, all I can do is keep losing more weight in the hope that my failure is caused by not yet getting down to my Personal Fat Threshold.

What FBG range are you hoping for? How long do to you plan to carry on this diet if you don't see the levels you want? If the ND approach no longer works and given you seem very anti low carb, then what about intermittent fasting as a long term health strategy to put T2 in remission? Google Dr. Fung.

 

[lucylocket61]

Not enough, obviously, or my FBGs would have gone down to the normal range.

I am sorry, but that doesnt answer my question.

 

[Tannith]

What FBG range are you hoping for? How long do to you plan to carry on this diet if you don't see the levels you want? If the ND approach no longer works and given you seem very anti low carb, then what about intermittent fasting as a long term health strategy to put T2 in remission? Google Dr. Fung.

A normal one ie 4 to 4.5. What I really seek, more than normal FBG results is an OGT result in the normal range, as this would be a better indicator of beta cell recovery. However I have read that Prof Taylor's subjects did not achieve 95 % of normal OGT til a year after their diet started, ie long after the diet itself finished. That leads me to believe that the beta cells need to remain de clogged from fat for a few months before they recover their full function as repaired by the diet. "maximal rate of insulin secretion increased from 581 (480–811) pmol/min/m2 at baseline to 736 (542–998) pmol/min/m2 at 5 months, 942 (565–1,240) pmol/min/m2 at 12 months (P = 0.028 from baseline), and 936 (635–1,435) pmol/min/m2 at 24 months (P = 0.023 from baseline; n = 20 of 39 of those initially in remission). This was comparable to the NDC group (1,016 [857–1,507] pmol/min/m2) by 12 (P = 0.064) and 24 (P = 0.244) " Hence an OGT 2 hour at approx 75% of normal at 5 months post starting diet would indicate that I might be on the way to a substantial improvement of beta cell function. In the meantime I only have FBGs to go by and they are not brilliant. Intermittent fasting I imagine would also produce weight loss, but I'm not having any problem with losing the weight on the 1000 cal per day diet . I just need to continue that or some other form of weight loss until I get down to my Personal Fat Threshold, at which point I should see normal FBGs

 

[zand]

@Tannith You still haven't answered lucylocket's question as to how much weight you have lost in the 3 months and if you are still overweight. I thought I remembered a while back that you said you were no longer overweight. So how underweight (ie unhealthy) are you prepared to be to get to your PFT?

 

[lucylocket61]

A normal one ie 4 to 4.5. What I really seek, more than normal FBG results is an OGT result in the normal range, as this would be a better indicator of beta cell recovery. However I have read that Prof Taylor's subjects did not achieve 95 % of normal OGT til a year after their diet started, ie long after the diet itself finished. That leads me to believe that the beta cells need to remain de clogged from fat for a few months before they recover their full function as repaired by the diet. "maximal rate of insulin secretion increased from 581 (480–811) pmol/min/m2 at baseline to 736 (542–998) pmol/min/m2 at 5 months, 942 (565–1,240) pmol/min/m2 at 12 months (P = 0.028 from baseline), and 936 (635–1,435) pmol/min/m2 at 24 months (P = 0.023 from baseline; n = 20 of 39 of those initially in remission). This was comparable to the NDC group (1,016 [857–1,507] pmol/min/m2) by 12 (P = 0.064) and 24 (P = 0.244) " Hence an OGT 2 hour at approx 75% of normal at 5 months post starting diet would indicate that I might be on the way to a substantial improvement of beta cell function. In the meantime I only have FBGs to go by and they are not brilliant. Intermittent fasting I imagine would also produce weight loss, but I'm not having any problem with losing the weight on the 1000 cal per day diet . I just need to continue that or some other form of weight loss until I get down to my Personal Fat Threshold, at which point I should see normal FBGs

3 1/2 years ago you posted this:

"I personally would avoid using metformin because of its side effects, and much prefer the low carb method of treating diabetes. Many say their HCPs and doctors don't encourage that, or even discourage it. Why take any notice of them? They can control whether or not they prescribe drugs but only YOU control whether you do low carbs or not."

What changed your mind?