Proteins on Low carb diet question

[phiddy55]

Was wondering about eating too many proteins while in ketosis on the low carb, high fat diet. I have a friend who is an RN and this is what she told me.

"Overeating protein is also a bad thing when you’re in ketosis. This is because the excess protein will cause a decrease in ketone production and increase your reliance on sugar burning by providing more substrates for gluconeogenesis." This would increase sugars in the body.... therefore you may see higher numbers.

Was wondering about this as I AM seeing higher morning numbers and have been having to increase my Lantus to compensate. Or, is this the dawn phenomenon I am seeing with the higher blood sugars?

Thanks in advance.

 

[bulkbiker]

Personally as someone who is currently only eating meat I don't agree.
However I also don't use any medication.. so whether that has an impact I don't know.
From the fairly large amount I have read it appears more likely that gluconeogenesis is demand driven so protein will produce only the glucose that is required. That is certainly my own experience.
How much protein are you eating?

 

[Member496333]

I have found this to be true. Others have not.

I can predictably and absolutely reliably increase my fasting numbers by ~1mmol/L simply by eating 30% more protein than I need the day before. This effect is now lessened as my insulin sensitivity has improved, but to my understanding this simply proves the theory that excess protein can cause a glucose response in the medium term.

However, and this must be stated, do not deny yourself protein in the same way that you might carbohydrate. It’s absolutely crucial to human life. The trick is finding the correct amount for your own body

 

[pr126]

Recommended protein intake per day in keto diet is between 3 - 6 oz.

 

[Member496333]

Personally as someone who is currently only eating meat I don't agree.
However I also don't use any medication.. so whether that has an impact I don't know.
From the fairly large amount I have read it appears more likely that gluconeogenesis is demand driven so protein will produce only the glucose that is required. That is certainly my own experience.
How much protein are you eating?

There’s little doubt that GNG is demand driven. I believe glucagon is the primary hormone responsible for asking the liver to manufacture glucose. As always though nothing is black & white. It could be that those who do not see a measurable rise in fasting numbers simply have ample insulin sensitivity with which to deal with it, or it could be that some people excrete more of the amino acids in their urine. There’s also things like hyperglucagonemia and glucagon resistance to consider.

Isn’t the human body an an amazing machine?! Love it!

 

[Rachox]

I don’t claim to be in ketosis, I don’t test for ketones but I do eat less than 50g carbs per day. Purely anecdotally if I have a larger than normal portion of meat for dinner my morning fasting level the next day is elevated, only around 0.5mmol/l higher but significant all the same.

 

[Brunneria]

Was wondering about eating too many proteins while in ketosis on the low carb, high fat diet. I have a friend who is an RN and this is what she told me.

"Overeating protein is also a bad thing when you’re in ketosis. This is because the excess protein will cause a decrease in ketone production and increase your reliance on sugar burning by providing more substrates for gluconeogenesis." This would increase sugars in the body.... therefore you may see higher numbers.

Was wondering about this as I AM seeing higher morning numbers and have been having to increase my Lantus to compensate. Or, is this the dawn phenomenon I am seeing with the higher blood sugars?

Thanks in advance.

Hi

I think my first question would be ‘what are you considering to be too much protein’?

The requirements for protein vary hugely depending on age, sex, activity and where that protein comes from.
There are several protein calculators online, and they ALL give different suggestions on protein intake. I have seen variances from 0.4g of protein/kg of lean bodyweight right up to 1.5g of protein/kg of current bodyweight.

Things are then further complicated because the key driver for ketosis is carb intake, not protein.
So it is much easier to move out of ketosis by eating carbs than by eating protein.
Although I think the amount of available fat (bodyfat or dietary fat) has an impact, as seen by the difficulty people have when fasting, if they have low bodyfat.

My advice to you would be to find out what works for you. Which may be different from what works for other people.
If you are in ketosis on your current keto eating, then it is a fairly easy thing to increase or decrease macros (fat, protein AND carbs) to get a feel for where your body is most comfortable.

This doesn’t necessarily mean your highest keto readings. It may be your highest feelings of wellness, with whatever ketone and blood glucose readings that means at present.

I feel best with a full on 80-90% of energy coming from fat.
Others feel fine with less fat, and more protein.
For me, part of that is because huge amounts of protein are quite challenging for me to digest. That is less about gluconeogenesis and more about digestive enzymes and digestion times.

Being fat adapted is also a factor.
Since gluconeogenesis is demand driven, the body is likely to demand it less once it has learned (through fat adaptation) to efficiently and easily get energy from fat.

 

[Member496333]

Agree that chasing ketone numbers is a little pointless. It tells you nothing about how efficient you are at burning them...only that you have x amount currently circulating in your bloodstream unused. Looking for high numbers would not be too dissimilar to a glucose burner purporting to have loads of energy because they have hyperglycaemia. I do have a blood ketone meter but use it only for spot checks once a week, usually on a Sunday morning. For reference I normally rock ~3mmol/L but I’ve seen 5.5 when fasting.

Of paramount importance for a type 2 using dietary ketosis as a treatment is to minimise insulin secretion at all times. For some of us this means not overdoing the protein, for others it seems not to matter much. I wish I were in the latter category. I’d be pooing streaky bacon

 

[Flora123]

Was wondering about eating too many proteins while in ketosis on the low carb, high fat diet. I have a friend who is an RN and this is what she told me.

"Overeating protein is also a bad thing when you’re in ketosis. This is because the excess protein will cause a decrease in ketone production and increase your reliance on sugar burning by providing more substrates for gluconeogenesis." This would increase sugars in the body.... therefore you may see higher numbers.

Was wondering about this as I AM seeing higher morning numbers and have been having to increase my Lantus to compensate. Or, is this the dawn phenomenon I am seeing with the higher blood sugars?

Thanks in advance.

I agree. If I have too much protein esp later in the day my readings are definitely higher.

 

[kitedoc]

Agree that chasing ketone numbers is a little pointless. It tells you nothing about how efficient you are at burning them...only that you have x amount currently circulating in your bloodstream unused. Looking for high numbers would not be too dissimilar to a glucose burner purporting to have loads of energy because they have hyperglycaemia. I do have a blood ketone meter but use it only for spot checks once a week, usually on a Sunday morning. For reference I normally rock ~3mmol/L but I’ve seen 5.5 when fasting.

Of paramount importance for a type 2 using dietary ketosis as a treatment is to minimise insulin secretion at all times. For some of us this means not overdoing the protein, for others it seems not to matter much. I wish I were in the latter category. I’d be pooing streaky bacon

Just to add from the Type 1 perspective that measuring ketones becomes important on a low carb diet if one's BSLs skyrocket for some reason.

 

[phiddy55]

There’s little doubt that GNG is demand driven. I believe glucagon is the primary hormone responsible for asking the liver to manufacture glucose. As always though nothing is black & white. It could be that those who do not see a measurable rise in fasting numbers simply have ample insulin sensitivity with which to deal with it, or it could be that some people excrete more of the amino acids in their urine. There’s also things like hyperglucagonemia and glucagon resistance to consider.

Isn’t the human body an an amazing machine?! Love it!

"nothing is black & white" I couldn't agree more!

 

[phiddy55]

I don’t claim to be in ketosis, I don’t test for ketones but I do eat less than 50g carbs per day. Purely anecdotally if I have a larger than normal portion of meat for dinner my morning fasting level the next day is elevated, only around 0.5mmol/l higher but significant all the same.

Was wondering about eating too many proteins while in ketosis on the low carb, high fat diet. I have a friend who is an RN and this is what she told me.

"Overeating protein is also a bad thing when you’re in ketosis. This is because the excess protein will cause a decrease in ketone production and increase your reliance on sugar burning by providing more substrates for gluconeogenesis." This would increase sugars in the body.... therefore you may see higher numbers.

Was wondering about this as I AM seeing higher morning numbers and have been having to increase my Lantus to compensate. Or, is this the dawn phenomenon I am seeing with the higher blood sugars?

Thanks in advance.

Oh my gosh you guys and gals are amazing. The knowledge base of this group is stunning! I mean that. You folks answered my post with such insight and compassion. Thank you very much. I do have some insulin sensitivity happening.... my numbers are up but, are responding well to the increase of my lantus. So am happy about that. I am still digesting all that you have said.... thank you, thank you, thank you for taking the time to answer me.

 

[timgil]

I have found this to be true. Others have not.

I think this is probably one of the most accurate statement that applies to SOOOOOO many different aspects of our disease. We are all different and while others' experiences are helpful, our own experiences may be different. But that doesn't invalidate our experience or that of others. We just have to remember we're all individuals ("I'm not").......