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Question about hypos

pinewood

Well-Known Member
Messages
792
Location
London
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Insulin
What determines the ability of someone to "naturally" fight off a hypo?

Is it similar to the honeymoon period - i.e. as time goes on your ability to recover from hypos naturally will diminish?

I find that if my BS drops too low my liver is pretty good at dumping some glucose ... so why does this not happen all the time/for everyone and why is a diabetic coma a risk?

I don't really understand: T1 is about the islet (i.e. insulin-producing) cells being destroyed: why does this have an effect on the ability of our livers to dump glucose and rescue us from hypos? Or is it simply that sometimes the liver can't keep up with the sheer speed of the drop?
 
Very technical questions, doubt you will get a comprehensive answer here, more for a consultant to answer.
 
From what I've heard, the ability wears off for the liver to dump as time goes on. Mines still going good after 25 years. Your liver could kick in but if you've still got something of your bolus left floating around that could still bring sugars low. Alcohol also dampens down the liver dump. Exercise can also affect how much you've got to dump.
I know my liver kicks in but I would rather err on the side of caution and correct with glucotablets or lucozade rather than wait.
 
I don't know, but I've always assumed it depends on how much artificial insulin it needs to counteract, and what reserves the liver has at that time.

I've never tested that by waiting. If I'm low, I take glucose or Lucozade as soon as possible. I'd never rely on my liver to rescue me.
 
Yes, to clarify, I'm not advocating waiting and letting your liver kick in! I also always treat.

I just noticed that on the very rare occasion I've gone low in the middle of the night my Libre seems to show that I level off around 3mmol and then creep back up.
 
You can't "naturally" fight of a hypo that's caused by too much artificial insulin on board.

A non-diabetic isn't going to have too much insulin on board - they will just hormonally have as much as they need for the conditions.

A diabetic might go hypo & have a glucose dump from the liver that will still being eaten up by the active insulin on board.

Type 1 doesn't just destroy insulin production - other hormone & triggers from the pancreas are adversely impacted. Including, potentially, I think, the trigger to the liver to glucose dump.

Also, if you get used to being hypo (hypo unaware) then there will be a time lag in getting the liver to react. And you can drain your liver of the glucose reserves - if you were unconscious the night before & a liver dump brought you round, a glucose dump tonight is unlikely to be that effective, cos there's no glucose left, your liver has to restock.

There's also the fact that when it comes to being "rescued" from a hypo, it's not just the low blood sugar alone that kills - quick low drops can cause cardi vascular panic & heart attack, no glucose stops your brain functioning so it might get to the point where your brain isn't sending the necessary signals to do breathing & pulse. (Sorry, morbid, but I've had hypoglycaemic hemiplegia - my brain forgot how to move my right side, it's not a massive leap to think my brain would have forgotten to do breathing)

So yeah, don't put the liver dump to the test for goodness sake - it's your last line of defence if your unconscious from a hypo. Avoid getting to that position by treating your hypos early.
 
Yes, to clarify, I'm not advocating waiting and letting your liver kick in! I also always treat.

I just noticed that on the very rare occasion I've gone low in the middle of the night my Libre seems to show that I level off around 3mmol and then creep back up.

It could be that your insulin is running out then so you don't go too low on that occasion. I had horrible nighttime hypos and my liver didn't kick in. Or if it did, it was totally ineffective. My pump solved those, and I've found that having small amounts of fast acting on board has made a huge difference.

As @catapillar says, the hormonal system is messed up when you have Type 1 so things don't work as they would necessarily in someone without diabetes. I remember reading something about glucagon production being affected too.
 
The entire process is incredibly technical and still not completely proven so you'll likely get answers that are a combination of fact and opinion.

As mentioned, with type 1 more than just our beta cells are affected by the disease. Personally, I believe that the answer lies in our pancreas' alpha cells and particularly how we regulate our glucagon hormone.

It seems glucagon management is affected in very different ways between people with type 1 and type 2. In people with type 2, there seems to be an issue with glucagon management in normal or hyperglycemic situations, but not in situations of hypoglycemia. That's why some people with type 2 may have issues with fasting glucose levels, but rarely does a type 2 have issues with hypoglycemia (ignoring medications that cause it).

In people with type 1, the insulin:glucagon relationship is obviously affected as we lose our natural insulin production. The issue seems to be that our alpha cells don't react to artificial insulin like they should.

My particular theory revolves around excess protein consumption and gluconeogenesis. Several studies have been performed to show that excess protein did not result in hyperglycemia for MOST people with type 2, but that was not true in people with type 1.

Furthermore, there was evidence in these studies to show that excess protein DID have a positive effect at correcting hypoglycemia in people with type 2.

How I've implemented this into my own approach:
I consume a significant amount of protein each day (often more than 1g/1lbs of body weight). That's for several reasons including: I'm interested in bodybuilding, I love eating meat, I have perfectly healthy kidneys, and it seems to have a positive effect at avoiding hypos for me (although that is a theory not a fact).

Similar to a basal/bolus insulin management, I believe there may be a similar relationship in a basal/bolus GLUCOSE management theory.

The excess protein I eat is my "basal glucose." It WILL raise my levels, but generally at a much slower rate (possibly over a 24hr period). While this creates potential issues with waking hyperglycemia (think dawn phenomenon), it's much better than having the opposite problem while I sleep. Only time will tell if this will continue to be an effective approach for me. Note: I AM able to gain weight (and quite easily) with this approach.

Obviously, my "Bolus" glucose would be sourced from carbohydrates. However, I regulate that by eating fewer than 50g of carbs each day (Bernstein's law of small numbers).

The end result is significantly reduced blood glucose volatility. Instead of having to worry about very rapid onset drops or spikes, I have to worry about drops or spikes that usually take longer than an hour before they become potentially serious.

Again, time will tell if this approach will continue to work.
 
I find that if my BS drops too low my liver is pretty good at dumping some glucose ... so why does this not happen all the time/for everyone and why is a diabetic coma a risk?

As others have said IOB will determine how fast you drop and how quickly the body responds to a hypo @pinewood

I've been type 1 for 34 years, still have good hypo awareness symptoms and have never needed any help in dealing with a hypo.
 
When I was in my late teens 《18) my dsn told me not to worry about nightime hypos because my liver would come to my rescue and release some glucose in response but by the time I was in my mid 20's, my liver no longer did this but my boyfriend did and got some hypostop into me through buccal gum line and cheeks, drink some lucozade and then eat a biscuit. Saved the day loads of times. I later found out that as we all get older, the alpha cells which release the hormone glucagon to prompt the liver to release glucose, can also get destroyed in some people but why some people are ok and some not, is a mystery.......Thank goodness for pumps which can turn insulin down overnight through basal rate adjustment and now cgm as well, my life is a lot safer even though cgm is costing me a small fortune.
 
My liver still dumps too but I get concerned because my endo said that the longer you've had diabetes your liver can fail to dump. I'm insulin deficient and on MDI myself. I just saw your question in the new feed thing on the main page and was curious what you were asking. I still have hypos during the night and I know when my liver has dumped as I feel awful and have the hypo hangover. I think I get confused with some technical explanation somewhere here that said because I'm type 2 basically I'm fine... but I don't think that is the case as I hardly have my own insulin being produced and I inject both bolus and basal insulins to keep my sugar levels in normal range. I think if my liver failed to dump I'd be in big trouble. As to fighting off a hypo I don't think I've ever been able to do that... the longer I wait I get worse. I can't even feel my feet on the ground if I'm having a hypo standing up.... so quite dangerous at times. I don't agree with people telling me I just get the dawn phenonemn at night either as I used to get that and never dropped too low and felt like I had a hypo hangover like I do now (that was prior to insulin days). Anyways I'm probably rambling as about to nod off. But good question you raised.
 
I am also type 2 and have reactive hypoglycaemia and the constant hypos are a nightmare i am on tablets which are doing nothing to help but interesting to read of others on different meds for this problem i cant seem to keep my levels at a good place for any great length of time!
 
Having had experience of diabetic coma, the risks are variable though life changing for some. There's health, independence, abilities in moving limbs independently, muscle strength & family commitments. I however had to rebuild my abilities & independence from being unable to walk or see clearly for few months after coming out of coma, feeding myself & learn common skills again. That's a small portion of the risks involved but can be much worse.
 
One other thing that a dsn told me affects it is whether the liver is "busy" when you need it to come to the rescue. For example if you've had a lot to drink and your liver is cleaning that up it might not dump glucose. That's especially a problems as alcohol can push your sugars down.

As others have said hough I think the main problem is usually too much insulin being injected which the liver just can't fight against..
 
There is definitely more than one view on this, and when I wrote this blog post: http://crick-tech-munch.blogspot.com/2015/12/why-is-glucagon-suppression-not-part-of.html the research I found suggested that beyond a certain point, the alpha-beta cell signalling starts to give up and beyond about ten years, you start to lose the recovery function.

Having said that, my current consultant disputes this, although there is scant evidence really either way.

My own experience is that my liver cannot overcome exogenous insulin unless it is in small amounts, however I have observed the ongoing post hypo effects of glucagon release pushing up bg levels for an extended period of time.

Probably the best person to read up on for this is Roger Unger, as he's probably done the greatest body of work on Glucagon and Type 1 diabetes.


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