Re: Saturated Fat is Innocent?

Bracwol,

Those of us with open minds do indeed look for the truth. Each of us makes up our own mind on how to treat our bodies, our diabetes etc. This forum is for all opinions not just one. Each member reads and makes their own minds up from the experience of others. We read, digest and either take on board or discard the information given.

We try out different things. If it works for us....great. If not then we move on until we find what does work for us....simple really.

Each person must make their own decision. Everyone else must respect that decision, whatever there own personal belief. To do otherwise...

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Yes, fully agree with that !

........and Ken does too!! ( not present at the moment)

as a footnote. There are no 'experts' on this forum. Only experienced diabetics.

fergus said:

Hi Zoroaster,

Yes, I agree too many carbs will cause hyperglycaemia. Once again you oversimplify the standard advice. Once again I ask you to stop it.

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The standard advice is no more complex than I have said, so it's hard to see how I have oversimplified it. DUK's 'Food Choices and diabetes' puts it like this:

Diabetes mellitus is a condition in which the amount of glucose in the blood is too high because the body cannot use it properly. Glucose comes from the digestion of starchy foods such as bread, rice, potatoes, chapatis, yams and plantain, from sugar and other sweet foods, and from the liver which makes glucose.

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It then continues,

Eat regular meals including starchy foods such as bread, pasta, chapatis, potatoes, rice and cereals. All starchy foods are suitable for you to eat and are naturally low in fat.
Cut down on the fat you eat, particularly saturated fats as this type of fat is linked to heart disease.

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Very simple, very clear and completely bonkers for anyone with the typical diabetic conditions of hyperinsulinemia, insulin resistance and malfunctioning lipid metabolism.
Just my opinion, albeit which incresing numbers of diabetics seem to share. You can discuss it, disagree with, whatever. Just don't ask me to stop it.

fergus

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I don't have that access to that nugget, but I do have the possibly more recent Eating well with Type 2 diabetes - you should try it, its free to download!

Not wishing to preempt any of your well considered and considerably well thought out counter arguments to the contents of this leaflet - it must be noted that in line with the Food Standards Agency DUK recommend personalising your diet in liaison with a dietitian - now that can't be a bad thing can it?

In discussing the source of carbohydrates in the diet they recommend

high fibre carbohydrates, such as wholegrains and fruit, also play an important role in the health of the gut

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and that

The actual amount of carbohydrate that the body needs varies depending on your age, weight and activity levels

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And in discussing three meals a day they recommend

Especially try to include those that are more slowly absorbed (have a lower glycaemic index) as these won’t affect your blood glucose levels as much

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In discussing fats they recommend choosing monounsaturated fats over saturated fats - simples.

Dr Charles Fox and Dr Anne Kilvert in the DUK publication Answers at your fingertips - Type 2 Diabetes encourage higher fibre foods and those with a lower GI.

The British Dietetic Association advise that diabetics should be aware of carbohydrates and portion sizes.

Not one leaflet I have been given advises eating 42 tbsps of rice, nor do any of them recommend eating loafs of white bread, packets of cornflakes, french fries, or sweetened drinks.

This is what I mean by over simplifying the DUK message and you frequently have done so and that is what I'm asking you to stop. For someone who spends so much time researching diet you appear to be remarkably poorly informed about DUKs recommendations.

Don't get me wrong, I don't knock whatever it is you do to manage your diabetes, but just because that works for you doesn't mean the DUK advice doesn't work for me.

Far from it, Zoroaster, I'm quite familiar with the DUK / FSA recommendations. It's simply that those extracts you have quoted are so wooly, imprecise and lacking in scientific foundation that they are of very little value. In my opinion.

it must be noted that in line with the Food Standards Agency DUK recommend personalising your diet in liaison with a dietitian - now that can't be a bad thing can it?

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- I do like your sense of humour though!

Personally, I have met three dieticians in the past few months. Two were, to put it politely, much larger than nature intended. The third assured me that, as a type 1 diabetic, eating protein had no effect on blood sugar and that, if I ate no carbs in a meal, I probably wouldn't need any insulin to cover it. Frankly, the advice on offer there is of the kind best avoided.

fergus

Bracwol said:

cugila said:

This post started with Sat Fat is innocent, I don't believe so. End of story.

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Thus spoke Cugila.

Just because you don't believe it to be worth consideration doesn't make it the End Of (the) Story.

Those of us with open minds will continue to search out the truth.

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Bracwol........that must have taken a lot of thought :lol:

Yes I did speak, my view, my opinion. As far as I am concerned it is the end of the story. Now if you wish to continue with your 'never ending story' then do so. I can ignore it or comment on it if I wish, democracy and free speech rules here you see !

As for your comment about 'open minds'.......what do you know about me ? Nothing at all. I only let anybody know what I choose to let them know, so don't presume to know what my mind is like and how I think ! I find your comment offensive and patronising. :roll:

aliguc :wink:

This is from the latest Saga newsletter Butter may not melt in your mouth, but it does appear to magically melt away from your bloodstream, writes Siski Green

Good article Ian. I liked this bit:

"We know that eating too much saturated fat such as butter – more than around 20-25g per day – increases cholesterol levels. We also know that olive oil has heart-healthy benefits. The important thing is to only eat as much fat as you need to burn each day – around 90 g of fat for a man, and 65g for a woman, and to minimise the saturated fats ."

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What I have always thought. I use butter on my bread, sparingly I hasten to add. I also use Olive Oil in cooking.....it appears I get the best of both Worlds......

Ken

I am assuming that 'moderator 2' put this forward as he/she is a advocate of saturated fat in the diet, or possibly not...............who knows!

Anyway, what I find extremely ammusing is that those who do include high levels of sat fat in their diet, always feel the need to justify this by pulling out articles from near and far to endorse their choice. I feel that by doing this they are trying to convience themselves that they are choosing the right option against mainstream medical opinion, a sort of 'self fulfilling prophecy' if you like!

Along with the majority of replies, think I will put my trust in those that deal with such matters on a daily basis, the cardiologists and surgeons that witness first hand the consequences of choosing the wrong diet.

Regards

Nigel

Nigel.
This Topic was started by raydavies. It is clearly posted to that effect.

There was a computer 'glitch' when the Op's post was moved. So Mod 2 has no opinion or input on this at all.

Thanks,

Apology to mod 2 for this mistake.............misread the original post!

Nigel

Hi - rocaster - I am being a little blond - what question?

It is an interesting debate but what is maddening is that this assumption that the diet encouraged by HCP etc is low in fat .Let us base this on 2000 calories.

This will give 250 g CHO
75g protein
77g Fat

Of the carbs remove 30g for a pint of milk and around 50g for the fruit and veg that leaves 180g CHO for any other spread through out the day it does not mean large portions at each meal.

The protein means 3 servings plus milk.

The fat comes from the protein sevings and milk , plus butter/marg and some oil for cooking etc.

What is quite interesting is that is probably the same as the low carbers in termes of protein and fat who seem to think that the standatd diet for non diabetic is low in fat!

For Type 2 the key is then to look at the actual carbs and servings at each meal. I would prescribe less than the 180g CHO for bread etc! And would be low GI of course. I find this gives good results because it is not generic and is calculated for each pt!
I must admit I have a feeling the low carbers may be underestimating their carbs from veg etc.

I will look forward to some comments because this is more fat than some low carbers.

Fergus - unhelpful and childish comments about Dietitians do not add to the debate either - who know what you look like.

allyx

Normal wt Dietitian who eats low GI carbs! plus butter and eggs !!

ally5555 said:

Normal wt Dietitian who eats low GI carbs! plus butter and eggs !!

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Ally.
How could you....you told me to cut out the butter and the eggs.........

Ken xx

I have learned over the years to take the advice of medical professionals with a pinch of Lo-Salt.

It was my doctor (at the time) who told me cigars were safe.

It was a surgeon who, in 1971, told me I needed a Colostomy urgently. I refused and following some years treatment with the Salazopyrin I demanded am now fine in that department.

It was my doctor who, when I followed the instructions on the packet of Lo-Salt and consulted my physician, told me he had no idea how it might cause a problem with my high blood pressure meds.

It was my diabetic nurse who thought sucrolose was the same as sucrose and she'd never heard of Splenda!

It was the doctor I saw in 1999 who told me the Plantar Fasciitis that was preventing me from walking any distance was incurable. At the same time he was telling me to walk for 40 minutes a day to help control my blood pressure. After 3 years of agony, my feet were cured by a great Physiotherapist after 8 treatments!

The same doctor told me to ignore the tingling in my fingers and the sudden "butterflies" that 5 years later was diagnosed as Atrial Fibrillation.

The same doctor told me I'd had a silent heart attack. Five years later, it was discovered the ECG had been misinterpreted and I had not had a heart attack after all! Of course, my life insurance has been loaded ever since.

Following my high blood pressure scare in 1999 (230/126) I followed the "healthy eating" advice from the doctors and tried to exercise up to and beyond my pain threshold (heel pain). At the time I weighed 14 Stone. Over the following ten years I ballooned to 17 stone 8 pounds! In 2009 I was found to be diabetic and told to follow the diet I was already on!

I started to investigate and found this forum. I was impressed that people had found success low carbing so read up on it. I now have various books and have taken advice from members here.

As of today, my fasting glucose was at it's lowest: 5.4. My weight is now 15 stone 1 pound.

Previous posts from myself and my wife may reveal a shaky start to low carbing, but it soon settled down and we are both delighted with the results.

I feel fitter than I have for 20 years, I march up hills at a pace my two Greyhounds protest at!

Oh, by the way, my blood pressure has settled to around 131/79.

Experts? Doctors? Dieticians? I'm sure they all try to act and offer advice with the best of intentions. You cannot expect them to keep up with the constant bombardment of facts and sales patter and still practice medicine. Whatever pay they receive and however dedicated they are, there's still only 24 hours in a day. Besides which, they have to rely on the veracity of the information they receive.

Lastly, there's no doubt heart surgeons are able to perform miracles on faulty hearts. Just because they can fix them, it does not, in my opinion, automatically follow that they know for sure what caused the problem. A car mechanic fixes cars, but he can't advise you on the best make of oil or fuel on the market! OK. that's a fairly lightweight analogy, but it conveys the point - experts may be great in their field but to a large extent their advice can be suspect if it moves outside the immediate boundaries of their field.

Even more lastly! I made the original comment about the tubby dietician, Ken was just following up on that. The comment was not aimed at anyone on this forum, but was merely noting the absurdity that someone who was overweight was content to give dietary advice that she claimed was healthy and worked for her.

Ray

Stunning Ray Davies!
Says it all.
Sums up so eloquently what I have been trying to get my head around for some time. We have experts in their field who are amazing at fixing what they know best.
What they may not be fantastic at is to disect the research which identifies why the problem happened in the first place.
Clear thinking RD. Were you a singer in a past life? Sorry you have heard that one a thousand times before, I am sure.

No I'm not that Ray Davies If I was, I could, perhaps, have afforded better medical advice!

Thanks for the compliments.

Ray (not Ray Davies) Davies.

THanks for your contributions, Ally.

Ally - various posts said:

mmm - you probably have to put it into perspective! So saturated fat in crisps andd chips and junk etc is ok - somehow I do not think so. !!!
......
In practice I see people eating massive amounts of fat - so that has to have an effect on obesity levels, leading to type 2 and other health problems - you think you eat alot of fat I know but some of my pts consume 4-5 times more than you and alot as saturated.

I do agree that the FSA is targetting the wrong food and sending out mixed messages!
.....
It is an interesting debate but what is maddening is that this assumption that the diet encouraged by HCP etc is low in fat .Let us base this on 2000 calories.

This will give 250 g CHO
75g protein
77g Fat

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However do we eat as much as 77 g fat?

230 g cheese, or 150 g nuts. That is a lot more than the DUK recommended matchbox size piece of cheese, or a handful of nuts. My wife (who has had a heart attack) has got the message that the absolute minimum of fat of any type is desirable. Presumably none would be the ideal.

What are the consequences of a low fat diet?

I presumed you were concerned at an excessive fat diet caused by chips, pizzas, pastries, Indian savouries, etc.

Is it safe to eat fats as they occur naturally in cheese & nuts & meat?

Ian, I don't eat a lot of extra fat. I do eat the fats that are already there though in cheese, meat, etc.
Again, it is the portion size I look at along with the lower carb content.

Ian - this is the probelm people have this perception that all fat is bad - we need fat , it gives us energy and the essential fats are involved in many processes in the body.
Generally if you eat less than 40g fat /day you will not consume enough and need to take fat soluble vitamins as well.
Ian what you must not do is think of all the fat coming from one food - like cheese or all your carbs as rice!

The key here is portions and variety. if you think about 14 meals (lunch and ev meal) you might have red meat 4 times , chicken 4 times, fish 4 times and cheese twice. The third protein serving can be egg for breakfast. Now I think that sounds remarkably like the some of the low carbers. !!

The other factor is food combining as fat slows down stomach emptying and so does lower GI / portion control so when planning a meal plan this is what I would be looking at! All these together mean that I find in practice I am getting good HBA1 levels with many pts.

Ian I think the problem is, and please do not take this as a criticism because it is not , many people focus on the individual foods and do not see the whole diet. As a dietitian I have been trained to see that!

The question of nuts can sometimes be a dllema - I am finding that some people are eating massive amounts and taking in alot of extra calories and putting on weight!

The question of nuts can sometimes be a dllema - I am finding that some people are eating massive amounts and taking in alot of extra calories and putting on weigh

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That is what happened to me. Weight loss totally stalled until I cut back on the nuts and then weight came off again.