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Replacing carbs with fat...

P

PickledPepper

Well-Known Member
Messages
238
Okay, I keep hearing that diabetics (T2) can't metabolise fats properly but haven't been told why exactly?

Is this true, if so, is it a bad idea to get a greater chunk of our calories through fats in lieu of carbs?


Any (even partially) informed opinions welcome.


I have been doing this and am wondering if I am now killing myself in an alternate way to high carb intake.

What I find annoying is that on one hand we can't obviously over do the carbs for well known reasons, then I hear we need to go easy on protein too because it can knacker our already vulnerable kidneys...fats are bad for obvious reasons.

So I guess I'll just nip outside and chew grass whenever I get peckish?
 
OK first of all where do you keep hearing that we can't metabolise fats properly ?

We definitely can't metabolise CARBS properly !

Some of us, for various reasons can't tolerate a lot of fat in the diet.

Proteins can damage already damaged kidneys but do not, in themselves , cause the damage.
 
There's so much ubbish out there about fats. It's a last desperate effort to demonise them.
Fats are not proven to be dangerous to anyone
Hana
 
What about Trans Fats, Hana ?

Please don't generalise.

Trans fats are an artificial fat produced by putting liquid vegetable oils through a chemical process in which they react with hydrogen gas and become solid at room temperature. Food processors like to use trans fats in their products because they extend the shelf life of the product, enhance the flavor and they are less expensive. So trans fats are advantageous to the food manufacturer but dangerous to the consumer. They clog the arteries; increase LDL cholesterol levels while reducing HDL cholesterol, and increase insulin levels. They have been linked to heart disease, type 2 diabetes, and immune dysfunction.
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I don't even use margarine anymore, just go for butter....

I actually can't wait for my next bloods because I'm going to see the results of my high fat, green tea and grapefruit diet on my Cholesterol levels. Heck I was scoffing pork bellies the other day...that can't be too good for you....

It feels scary eating fat like I do now, especially as I avoided the stuff like the plague a few years ago. What was weird from before (a long time before dx with T2), is that when I found I had slightly elevated Chol levels, I went on a strict regime of little or no fat whatsoever and regular exercising plus using Benecol. I mean I was looking lean muscular in those days and really tried looking after myself, but when I was tested a few months later (3 or 6, can't remember) there was only a tiny downward change in my Cholesterol. So there may well be truth in the saying that diet and exercise only lowers an elevated Chol level to a relatively small degree.

I just worse comes to worse, and they have shot up, I'll have to take statins for a few months. Last time I did I got big results quite quickly going from a stubborn 7 to 4 in a few months.
 
Hana.
What about Saturated Fats........this from the British Heart Foundation....... What do they know ?

Eating too much saturated fat, can increase your blood cholesterol levels, which raise your risk of coronary heart disease.

It's important to cut back on saturated fat and instead choose unsaturated fats – monounsaturated or polyunsaturated fats – which are a healthier choice and can improve your cholesterol levels.

However, all fats are high in calories, so if you’re watching your weight you should limit your overall fat intake.
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http://www.bhf.org.uk/heart-health/prev ... d-fat.aspx

Many on here find great difficulty with Fat/s so we would disagree with your generalisation, again !
 
hanadr said:
There's so much ubbish out there about fats. It's a last desperate effort to demonise them.
Fats are not proven to be dangerous to anyone
Hana
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Why would anyone want to demonise them? There is certainly an element of paranoia here. There are many people who cannot eat too much fat because of other health problems. It would prove dangerous to them.

I find fats very difficult to digest and cannot see why I would need to up my fats to control my diabetes? Moderation in everything is surely the key to a healthy lifestyle? We all need some fat in our diet but why would we need excess?

I do notice that some who eat a high fat diet do not seem to lose the weight they would like to. There are others who have upped their fat intake and cannot put any weight on. Has anyone got an explanation for that?
 
I should add. I do also try and counter balance the bad fat intake with fairly regular intake of good fat via flaxseed, pumpkin seed and sesame seeds and olive oil (even if the cheaper pomace stuff).

It's like I'm a guinea pig in my own crazy experiment.

As long as I don't 'conk out' in the next 3 months I believe it will be a very rewarding experiment.

(I do the above via a ground porridge I make and eat every now and then, with a crushed granola bar in it, tastes just like decentegrated weetabix in milk).
 
That's just it PP.

There are good fats which we need and the 'bad fats' which we should all moderate or avoid. For somebody to say that Fat is being demonised is way OTT. I eat butter, various other things such as cream in coffee.....however I limit my intake because of the bad effect, my weight starts to soar too.

We are all different in what we can consume, but I don't think we should be telling people that there is no danger in consuming fat........how do they know, what proof have they ? They have no idea of the medical history of anybody on this Forum, a reason why fat CAN be dangerous !
 
Prior to this condition I understood that humans vary biologically on an individual level and that this has implications for medicine. But it is only after actually getting dx and communicating with others with it that I have only REALLY started to grasp just how unique we are in this respect.

Can we generalise and say all serious medical conditions are uniquely individual in the same way I wonder? Some probably are some probably are probably a bit less...err.....customised in their nature and follow more predictable trajectories?

The thing that strikes home most for me in all this, is realising that healthcare maybe needs to change to encompass the understanding of this 'uniqueness' and try and evolve away from the generic type of analysis and treatment that seems to characterise it now?

That is the next step.

I'm not slagging off the NHS btw, I just saw Michael Moore's Sicko and believe you me - am grateful.
 
I know this doesn't suit everyone, but eating the low-carb way as advised by Atkins really suits me. I stayed on about 30gms of carb from April 2004 to October 2005, dropped 5 stone and had a blood lipid profile to die for - triglycerides down to 0.65, everything else just as it should be, blood pressure down to 120/75 and totally off meds. Blood glucose around the 5 mark.

Then I moved house, got a new job, went back on to carbs and wine, all the weight went back and now I'm diabetic! I reckon if I hadn't done Atkins I'd have been diabetic by the end of 2004. So I'm now back on the diet for life.

There's a lot of rubbish talked about fats by people who should know better. The following is from the USA national nutritional database (fascinating site!):

Lard (pork fat) contains:

45% monounsaturated fat (like in olive oil)
39% saturated fat, of which 35% is stearic acid which is actually good for HDL
16% polyunsaturated fat

I just try to eat fats from good sources (grass-fed beef, local Dales lamb and pork etc) and use butter and cold-pressed olive oil in cooking. My total cholesterol has just fallen from 5.8 to 5.0 in 3 months on Atkins; I won't bore you with the rest of the figures, but unless you have specific health problems eg kidney disease, high protein and fat will only do you good.

In my opinion, of course! :lol:

Viviennem
 
viviennem said:
There's a lot of rubbish talked about fats by people who should know better.

but unless you have specific health problems eg kidney disease, high protein and fat will only do you good.

In my opinion, of course! :lol:

Viviennem
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I am very glad to see that you are doing well on your low carb diet regime. Whatever works for you has to be good. Apart from your Cholesterol levels. :)

I totally agree with you that there is an awful lot of rubbish talked about fats by people who should know better. Many of them are just lay people who think they know better than experienced Cardiologists and Endocrinologists, real experts. There are always some experts of course, as in all walks of life who differ in the opinions. However, who is to say who is right on the subject.......

Something we should all consider before telling somebody high protein and high fat 'will only do you good.' How do you know ? As you say, that is 'just your opinion.'

It isn't just the kidneys which you mentioned which one has to think of, there are many more organs in the body which have to be considered. As stated before in this thread there are people who just cannot deal with high fats......a fact. I am one of them and I am at present low carbing (around 40g or less per day) but without high fat, that actually works extremely well for me so it doesn't have to be high fat. I eat butter, cream in my coffee and some other stuff but all closely regulated and in moderation. Not high fat by any means.

I have recently seen posts elsewhere where people are being to told eat more saturated fats........it's good for you !! That from a person with no medical qualifications at all. Pontificating in 'pseudo science' in an attempt to make it look impressive, as to the correct diet towards a recently diagnosed person. Playing with peoples lives because they think they know better. They know nothing other than what they read from some US site, where most of this stuff originates, and some 'maverick' MD's who wish to sell books. The same sort of advice delivered by 'quacks.' :wink:

Well, that flies in the face of majority medical opinion here and is not what is recommended. You wish to go with the 'rubbish that is talked', fine by me. It's just that the 'rubbish' may well be correct and it's the others who in the future will be wishing they had taken note of the 'other rubbish !' :?

The best advice regarding fat in the diet appears to be this: 1) reduce the fat intake to 30 - 35% of the total calories in the diet - but probably no lower than 25% of total calories; 2) try to eliminate saturated fats and trans fats from the diet, and substitute monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fats instead. (That is, eliminate animal and dairy fat, and substitute unprocessed vegetable fats
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Now if the person had said that which is the view from most sources........reputable sources.

I actually hope we are all correct and that there are many ways to deal with our Diabetes, there certainly seems to be if this website is anything to go by. We have people who reduce carbs/high fat/low fat......All I think are agreed that lowering carb intake has to be a good thing, the 'sticking' point (literally) is how much fat and what types are good or bad for you. A personal choice.

The considered medical opinion here in the UK where we prefer to get our information from is this when it comes to lowering cholesterol......this from the British Heart Foundation where some of the people who apparently talk 'rubbish' try to help people. :?

Cut down on saturated fats
To help reduce your cholesterol level, you need to cut down on saturated fats and trans fats and replace them with monounsaturated fats and polyunsaturated fats. You should also reduce the total amount of fat you eat.

Eat oily fish regularly
Oily fish provides the richest source of a particular type of polyunsaturated fat known as omega-3 fats which can help to lower blood triglyceride levels and also helps prevent the blood from clotting, and help to regulate the heart rhythm.

Eat a high-fibre diet
Foods that are high in soluble fibre such as porridge, beans, pulses, lentils, nuts, fruits and vegetables, can help lower cholesterol.

Do regular physical activity
This can help increase your HDL cholesterol (the 'protective' type of cholesterol).

Will eating sterol-enriched foods help reduce my cholesterol level?
There is evidence to show that substances called plant sterols and stanols may help reduce cholesterol levels. They are added to certain foods including margarines, spreads, soft cheeses and yoghurts.

I've heard that eating too many eggs can raise your cholesterol - how many can I eat?
The recommendation on how many eggs you can eat has changed over the years and is a common source of confusion. In the past we recommended a restriction on eggs because we thought that foods high in cholesterol (including liver, kidneys and shellfish, as well as eggs) could have an impact on cholesterol levels.

However, as research in this area has developed so has our understanding of how foods that contain cholesterol affect people’s heart health. This means we have changed our recommendation and there is currently no limit on the number of eggs that can be eaten in a week.

For most people, the amount of saturated fat they eat has much more of an impact on their cholesterol than eating foods that contain cholesterol, like eggs and shellfish. So if you like eggs, they can be included as part of a balanced and varied diet.

Will I need to take medication?
Whether you need to take cholesterol-lowering drugs or not depends not just on your total cholesterol, HDL and LDL levels,

Cholesterol-lowering medicines such as statins are prescribed for people who are at greatest overall risk of suffering from coronary heart disease.

http://www.bhf.org.uk/heart-health/cond ... terol.aspx
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It isn't all about Diabetes and Bg levels, at the expense of everything else. Every single aspect has to be considered and evaluated then conclusions drawn. A holistic approach, an individual approach. If things work for you and you are happy to take risks with new ideas.....good for you. Some of us weigh up the risks and see all the new ideas.....we just believe in something slightly different. We often embrace new ideas when the science and the evidence is good. That's one of the reasons why we like people to have both sides of the argument so that they can make measured and informed choices. They don't all have to agree...... :|

Just my opinion by the way......... :lol:
 
viviennem said:
Sorry I spoke!

Viviennem
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Why ?? Surely it helps to hear both sides, after all it is a discussion. I mean, we wouldn't all want to hear the same thing would we. That would make the World a very sad place. :)

You see, I am a supporter of low carbs, how low is up to the individual.......I just don't believe all the stuff about more fat is good. Not much difference between us really. :|
 
As far as I've been able to find out, there's no harm in natural fats. For a long time people were being warned that any fat was bad for you, then the medics noticed people, especially children, suffering from deficiency of essential fatty acids[I've heard it referred to as "Volvo syndrome", since many of these children came from affluent leafy suburbs where Volvos used to abound and many people were eating low fat and using skimmed milk etc.] So then there had to be a "getout".
It came in the form of a distinction between "good" and bad "fats", because no-one was going to admit to a mistake in dietary advice. Actually the saturated fats which got called "bad" are in many ways much safer than the unsaturated oils which we were told to think of as "good".The reason is that saturated fats are chemically stable and thus don't decay or go rancid as fast as oils. They contain silmilar fatty acids however. It was based on the mistaken idea that fats within the body would act like they do in the kitchen cupboard ... DAH!!! So solid fats=bad; liquid fats = good, which is actually nonsense. They don't block the circulation like kitchen drains, despite what the TV ads would have you think. Transfats are unnatural and don't belong anywhere in the human diet. they are formed to stabilise oils. In fact in Britain they've almost disappeared. they are made by adding hydrogen to the unsaturated bonds in the fattyacid structure. this makes the fat saturated and chemically stable. the word "trans" refers to the kind of bond which is formed by the hydrogenation process.
There's nothing like diet discussion to get people using the language of chemistry whilst having not the least notion of what they are talking about. How many people really know what a saturated or an unsaturated compound is?
Hana
 
That's very true Hana.......most have no idea what they are talking about, but they like to try and blind people with 'science' with only scant 'evidence' to support what they say.

It's a pity there aren't some real scientists around to clear up any ambiguities.....mind you they would have to be really impartial though.

Not people with vested interests and blinkered views....... :wink:
 
"Real scientists" believe in the biased studies (carried out in the 50's) that our modern view of a healthy diet are based on.

Like I've said before - until PROPER studies are carried out (ie - those that use ALL OF the gathered information, and do not cherry pick results from certain countries) I'll continue to eat all fats EXCEPT TRANS FATS (which have recently been PROVEN to be detrimental to our health).

The experts/professionals are getting more intelligent as time goes by, so, it follows, that they will find that more and more historical assumptions are incorrect. Makes sense, eh?

We've got 60 YEARS additional data after the Ansel Keys study - surely NOW we have enough information to re-visit the assumptions and confirm or deny the original findings?
 
PickledPepper said:
It's like I'm a guinea pig in my own crazy experiment.

As long as I don't 'conk out' in the next 3 months I believe it will be a very rewarding experiment.
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:lol: :lol: :lol: Hey Pickledpepper! Thanks so much for your thoughts (above). You have summed up exactly how I feel! After eating a traditionally healthy diet for years (low fat, varied carb, protein etc) I ended up diabetic. Now I have to make up calories with fat and protein - and like you, I am very concerned what I'm doing to myself and awaiting my next blood test with anticipation to see if my very good cholestorol (3.5) has taken a hammering. I was thinking this earlier as I scoffed strawberries and cream (with virtually no strawberries!)

I expect I'll join you in the garden eating grass after my next bloods :lol:

If you get your blood tests before me, please post your results!

Smidge
 
Hi Cugila

I may have over-reacted to your last post a little, because it seemed to assume that I hadn't read round and evaluated evidence before making my decision on diet. Believe me, I've been researching cholesterol for nearly 10 years now, long before I became diabetic, and I've come across (and recognised) most of the cranks and gold-diggers. It was when I reached 20 stone on the recommended food-pyramid-based low fat diet, with a total cholesterol at 6.5, that I realised it didn't work for me! :shock:

I did a lot of background research before I first went on to Atkins; his writing style is appalling, but fortunately he publishes lots of references which are possible to follow up, with a bit of persistence. I thought the diet might kill me, but since I was obviously going to die in short order if I continued as I was, it was worth the risk. I didn't realise how conditioned I'd become to low fat until I tried to take a bite of pork chop with the fat still on! :lol:

So: conventionally, my total cholesterol at 5 is still high; but my total:HDL ratio is 3.5, which is fine, and triglycerides at 0.84 (at the moment) is also very good. I have a full lipid profile done every 6 months, liver and kidney function every 12, and my GP gives me the print-outs. I'm blessed with a GP who realises that my IQ is not in inverse proportion to my BMI, and who treats me like an intelligent human being, not a fat old woman! Not that he's infallible, as I know to my cost, but we have a good working relationship.

There's a lot of very good info on the web, it's just a matter of being able to identify the dross. The National Nutritional Database, for instance, is an official US Government department, and they publish detailed nutritional values for many (all?) foods. Journals are available - eg the American 'Journal of Lipid Research' - and even if I can't understand the really detailed science, they publish executive summaries and are peer-reviewed. Not that means they are always gospel truth, of course, and new research is always changing things - eg eggs.

Every single human being is different, and I believe that a one-size-fits-all approach is very dangerous, whether it's to diabetes, diet or dandruff. If I sound didactic I'm sorry - I'm used to writing for publication and my style is maybe too formal for a forum discussion. I think everyone has a responsibility to know as much as possible about their own health problems. I got myself here, and it's up to me to do the best I can with the situation. I'm happy to share what I know and believe, but I know I don't know everything, and I'm hoping that everyone else will help me too.

Viviennem

. . .but what do I know?
 
Cheers, Viv - nice post. Your's is exactly the kind of input I come to this forum for. Informed decisions based on extensive research and personal experience.

MUCH more valuable than cut n' pastes from the NHS...
 
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