Covid and Work, Covid Advice and General Chat

[Fairygodmother]

I think teachers probably claim to do more than just mind the children for a while.

And they could carry on doing the ‘more’ if all children had access to zoom lessons. Of course that wouldn’t get the economy going again, but a form of blended learning, with smaller classes, masks at all times, proper classroom booths and less teacher bashing might.

 

[NicoleC1971]

I imagine there will be an exodus of teachers who are able to find any other means of supporting themselves while the govt is treating them with such contempt. It is clearly not possible for 30 kids and a teacher (or 2) to stay 2m apart in the average size classroom. It is just not reasonable to ask teachers,especially those who are vulnerable or over 45 ish, to work in these conditions just so as to provide a free babysitting service for those parents who would (naturally), prefer to go back to work, or find the kids get under their feet when they are trying to WFH. None of us asked for this pandemic, and most of us are in difficulties of some sort as a result of it. Our grandparents put up with far far worse than this in WW2. And for 5 whole years! I think the reckless conditions under which teachers are expected to work may be the "new" care home crisis, and cause a great deal of illness even if fewer actual deaths.

Sorry but where are all these poor teachers who are dropping like flies?
Schools closed on March 16th as I recall with the virus having been rife at least in London since January and across Europe and in Sweden the schools stayed open or re opened in various places without any associated spikes. I am not aware of any school related illness in Scottish teachers who went back in August.
The working people who had a higher than average illness rates were those who came from a lower socio economic background with the attendant health conditions that are always linked e.g. transport workers, female nurses but curiously not those shop workers in supermarkets that have been mingling with the public all the way through.
I can't agree that parents are selfish for wanting a decent education for their children given the serious economic times we are heading into. Its not just about 'babysitting' and home schooling as certainly taught me to appreciate the work that goes into classroom education.

 

[JRT]

I do feel sorry for students going to University, especially the first years. It's supposed to be a wonderful life experience as well as an academic one. Alongside the fun it can be quite daunting. I was at University at the other end of the country and remember at times I was very homesick during the first term. Many students rely on money from jobs in hospitality to get by. Watching a segment on Liverpool University it appears the vast majority of learning will be done online with questions being raised about the safety of occasional lectures. I cant help but wonder when you add on cost of accommodation they might as well stay at home. Distance Learning is excellent with the Open University.
Of course there is also the fact that there are many jobs associated with a university and the impact on local economy of no students.

 

[Brunneria]

Fresher’s Flu happens every year at universities.
The students all arrive at the beginning of the Autumn term carrying all the local bugs they have been living comfortably with back home.
Then they spend the first term swapping, sharing and mixing their lurgies, so that they pick up every one else’s ‘non-local’ bugs.
Plus, after a full term of culture shock, parties, hangovers and all nighters (last minute essay writing fueled by caffeine tabs and energy drinks), their immune systems are at an all time low. Staff catch it too, with less youthful resilience.

Back when I was university staff we used to joke about how all the freshers crawled home at the end of the first term to be nursed back to health by their doting Mamas, ready to return, recharged, in January, with immunity nicely percolated.
My own immune system took 5-6 years to catch everything, get immune to everything, and become impressively resistant.

Having Covid in the mix is going to make things rather more intense, but most students have youth and v low odds of high covid risk. However, I do hope students with known vulnerabilities take suitable precautions - whatever is appropriate for their circumstances.

 

[MrsA2]

@JRT surely there are other care related jobs going nearer home and for better employer? I thought good carers are in short supply and can't understand why you allow yourself to be treated this way

 

[ert]

Sorry but where are all these poor teachers who are dropping like flies?
.

You must have missed the posts on the 16.9
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-in-england-self-isolating-due-to-covid-fears

 

[Max68]

Awaiting a call tomorrow from the CAB re Universal Credit. Not sure if the DWP advisor last night was correct or if she misunderstood me but will see tomorrow.

Have wondered on an idea though which "might" help receive me UC but also possibly keep me in the loop for my job if and when things get easier. Wondering if rather than resigning suggest that I go on unpaid leave? Not sure if my employer would go with it but it might solve a few problems!

 

[JRT]

@JRT surely there are other care related jobs going nearer home and for better employer? I thought good carers are in short supply and can't understand why you allow yourself to be treated this way

The job I do is support and quite unique to my employer. For me it has become a matter of principle and I dont see why they should get away with it. There are some good care homes but the majority are short staffed or have the minimum staff they can get away with. Staff just move on to the next home and nothing changes. That said it's been an exhausting game which I'm only prepared to stay in for a little longer.

 

[Bluetit1802]

Have wondered on an idea though which "might" help receive me UC but also possibly keep me in the loop for my job if and when things get easier. Wondering if rather than resigning suggest that I go on unpaid leave? Not sure if my employer would go with it but it might solve a few problems!

I very much doubt that being on unpaid leave will entitle you to UC. You are still employed.
I believe the advisor you spoke to is correct, but easier to confirm this if you ring your local job centre and ask to speak to a work coach. My daughter is one of these work coaches.

 

[Tannith]

You must have missed the posts on the 16.9
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-in-england-self-isolating-due-to-covid-fears

And: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...articles/coronaviruscovid19roundup/2020-03-26


"The number of people in England who have tested positive for the coronavirus (COVID-19) has increased in recent weeks.

Younger age groups have seen the greatest increase in infection rates, particularly those aged 2 to 11, 17 to 24 and 25 to 34 years"

 

[Max68]

@Bluetit1802

Thank you. My work coach is calling me later.

The CAB forwarded me the first paragraph. I found two/three and four online and not sure if my situation applies to either.


Overall, I believe what the DWP adviser was advising you to do is to change your 'work related activity group' by declaring that your health condition limits your abilities to work/look for work. This is called having "limited capability for work". Should you attain "limited capability for work", you may not be expected to look for work or be in work. In addition, if you attain "limited capability for work related activity" you may receive a top-up/payment addition on your Universal Credit award. To learn more about "limited capability for work/limited capability for work related activity"



"You are likely to be penalised by the loss of benefits for around three months if you left your last job voluntarily, unless you can show that you did so for “good reason”. This is called a “sanction”. These sanctions already existed under the old-style Job Seekers Allowance system and have been replicated under Universal Credit.

Citizens Advice has put together some guidance (‘Deciding whether to resign’) explaining the circumstances in which you might be able to challenge a benefits sanction imposed because you resigned from your job, and how to go about proving to the DWP why you quit. Everything depends on your personal circumstances, but some of the reasons that Citizens Advice suggest might be accepted by the DWP include that you:

• took voluntary redundancy
• weren't getting the National Minimum Wage
• didn't feel safe working in the conditions because they didn't meet health and safety standards
• didn't feel safe because you were bullied or harassed
• had a zero-hour contract,"

 

[Fairygodmother]

Sorry but where are all these poor teachers who are dropping like flies?
Schools closed on March 16th as I recall with the virus having been rife at least in London since January and across Europe and in Sweden the schools stayed open or re opened in various places without any associated spikes. I am not aware of any school related illness in Scottish teachers who went back in August.
The working people who had a higher than average illness rates were those who came from a lower socio economic background with the attendant health conditions that are always linked e.g. transport workers, female nurses but curiously not those shop workers in supermarkets that have been mingling with the public all the way through.
I can't agree that parents are selfish for wanting a decent education for their children given the serious economic times we are heading into. Its not just about 'babysitting' and home schooling as certainly taught me to appreciate the work that goes into classroom education.

There are quite a few. My own son-in-law has been isolating while my daughter awaits a test result: he’s a headmaster. He also had to isolate when my grandson was ill. So far he, and my grandsons, have missed two weeks of this term. They’re not the only ones.

https://www.theguardian.com/educati...-fully-open-quadruples?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

 

[Fairygodmother]

Sorry but where are all these poor teachers who are dropping like flies?
Schools closed on March 16th as I recall with the virus having been rife at least in London since January and across Europe and in Sweden the schools stayed open or re opened in various places without any associated spikes. I am not aware of any school related illness in Scottish teachers who went back in August.
The working people who had a higher than average illness rates were those who came from a lower socio economic background with the attendant health conditions that are always linked e.g. transport workers, female nurses but curiously not those shop workers in supermarkets that have been mingling with the public all the way through.
I can't agree that parents are selfish for wanting a decent education for their children given the serious economic times we are heading into. Its not just about 'babysitting' and home schooling as certainly taught me to appreciate the work that goes into classroom education.

You also forget that schools here remained open for the children of key workers. During lockdown teachers also created worksheets, zoom and email communications, tutorials, marked work set (if pupils had done the work!) and provided individual help if requested. Admittedly some schools were better than others, but most worked really hard to provide for those who chose to take what was offered. The A Level fiasco created more work for teachers. There were also hours of planning that teachers put into ways that schools could reopen safely, or as safely as possible. This wasn’t helped by the way guidelines keep changing. School budgets were stretched to provide safety measures too, despite a lack of funds.

 

[JRT]

@Bluetit1802

Thank you. My work coach is calling me later.

The CAB forwarded me the first paragraph. I found two/three and four online and not sure if my situation applies to either.


Overall, I believe what the DWP adviser was advising you to do is to change your 'work related activity group' by declaring that your health condition limits your abilities to work/look for work. This is called having "limited capability for work". Should you attain "limited capability for work", you may not be expected to look for work or be in work. In addition, if you attain "limited capability for work related activity" you may receive a top-up/payment addition on your Universal Credit award. To learn more about "limited capability for work/limited capability for work related activity"



"You are likely to be penalised by the loss of benefits for around three months if you left your last job voluntarily, unless you can show that you did so for “good reason”. This is called a “sanction”. These sanctions already existed under the old-style Job Seekers Allowance system and have been replicated under Universal Credit.

Citizens Advice has put together some guidance (‘Deciding whether to resign’) explaining the circumstances in which you might be able to challenge a benefits sanction imposed because you resigned from your job, and how to go about proving to the DWP why you quit. Everything depends on your personal circumstances, but some of the reasons that Citizens Advice suggest might be accepted by the DWP include that you:

• took voluntary redundancy
• weren't getting the National Minimum Wage
• didn't feel safe working in the conditions because they didn't meet health and safety standards
• didn't feel safe because you were bullied or harassed
• had a zero-hour contract,"

Thankyou Max.
I had a look at the form for claiming extra for illness under UC. It is indeed the old form of ESA of which there are two groups,one more or less permenantly unfit for work, the other more of a work group. Everyone has different health concerns so difficult to judge. As you say best to see what your work coach says. I must admit on the few occasions I have dealt with them they have been lovely.
The dilemma of whether to resign?
Someone asked yesterday why I put up with such treatment from my employers which I answered in part.
I think we have all almost become immune to the we are living in unprecedented times line.
My background is social sciences and research. I took a job that I was ovequalified for because I wanted to work with individuals rather than manage staff. It was a chance to get back to basics. Thoroughly enjoyed it.
When Covid appeared academically I felt capable of research into what was happening, separating the wheat from the chaff. One thing that seemed certain was that diabetics were vulnerable. The government even acknowledged it both on Gov.UK and health websites for GPs. We know more now and other comorbidities or lack of can heighten or lessen risk.
My employers lied about the presence of covid in the building in mid March. A third of the residents died(over 20), staff were infected. Two managers have been sacked since March and the majority of staff that were there during that time have left. They have ignored requests for covid safety measures etc etc. I have been told to come back when I feel it is safe or just do as I'm told and be ok. They refused to furlough, offer alternative role etc.
Alongside this were government guidelines on social distancing for high risk people. The key phrase is return to work if Covid safe. Very difficult to disprove. The home failed part of CQC on cleanliness, PPE is sporadic. There are lots of little details that add up to quite a problem.
Recently government advice for vulnerable and shielding groups has tailed off. You still need to limit social contacts,preferably work from home but can go to work if Covid safe. Even though currently infections are on rise etc etc that advice hasn't changed and I doubt it will. Its left to individuals to fight their own corner and they are totally at mercy of employers. I dont know whether it helps knowing that government workers are protected whether high risk or not,as are council workers. I dont begrudge their safety I'm angry that my health is dependent on luck!

My employers were supposed to be in contact on Tuesday after consulting their legal team over the events of past six months. They knew I had a GP appointment on Wednesday. Not a peep from them. It will be interesting to see what they say / offer. If anything.
I now know I am going to resign. As Max has stated for Universal Credit you have to have reasonable cause for doing so. Fortunately I have email trail of all communication. If that isnt sufficient I have a small amount of savings to get me through a three month sanction. I'm lucky.

 

[ert]

You also forget that schools here remained open for the children of key workers. During lockdown teachers also created worksheets, zoom and email communications, tutorials, marked work set (if pupils had done the work!) and provided individual help if requested. Admittedly some schools were better than others, but most worked really hard to provide for those who chose to take what was offered. The A Level fiasco created more work for teachers. There were also hours of planning that teachers put into ways that schools could reopen safely, or as safely as possible. This wasn’t helped by the way guidelines keep changing. School budgets were stretched to provide safety measures too, despite a lack of funds.

I taught six hours a day on Google Meet, my usual entire classes on their usual timetable from March the 17th. Schools weren't closed until the Summer break in July.

 

[Tannith]

You must have missed the posts on the 16.9
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-in-england-self-isolating-due-to-covid-fears

And the chart posted by HSSS a day or so ago View attachment 44178 Thank you HSSS

 

[DCUKMod]

@Max68 - My knee jerk reaction would be that by resigning, or asking for unpaid leave, you are choosing to put yourself in that situation, so can't see why the tax payer would be obliged to support you financially.

On your basis, anyone, without too much by way of savings, could decide to have a period of unpaid leave (for whatever reason), and expect the tax payer to support them through it.

 

[JohnEGreen]

@Max68 - My knee jerk reaction would be that by resigning, or asking for unpaid leave, you are choosing to put yourself in that situation, so can't see why the tax payer would be obliged to support you financially.

On your basis, anyone, without too much by way of savings, could decide to have a period of unpaid leave (for whatever reason), and expect the tax payer to support them through it.

Ever heard of Constructive Dismissal

You might be able to make a claim for constructive dismissal if you resigned because your employer:
allowed people to bully or harass you at work.
made unreasonable changes to how you work, for example by forcing you to work longer hours.
demoted you.
refused to pay you.
didn't make sure your working environment was safe.

 

[NicoleC1971]

You also forget that schools here remained open for the children of key workers. During lockdown teachers also created worksheets, zoom and email communications, tutorials, marked work set (if pupils had done the work!) and provided individual help if requested. Admittedly some schools were better than others, but most worked really hard to provide for those who chose to take what was offered. The A Level fiasco created more work for teachers. There were also hours of planning that teachers put into ways that schools could reopen safely, or as safely as possible. This wasn’t helped by the way guidelines keep changing. School budgets were stretched to provide safety measures too, despite a lack of funds.

I agree that lots of schools did work hard to make the situation work in stressful circumstances and I showed my appreciation to my children's teachers. They are state educated and do have space and laptops plus a parent on furlough to supervise. Not everyone is so fortunate hence the widening attainment gap that has been created.
In terms of educating the key workers' children I could not include that in examples of schools going back without illness spikes because there were few enough kids that they could do all the social distancing etc.
My point was and is that in spite of the worry about unsafe working environments for teachers, there is no evidence that this is the case.

 

[DCUKMod]

Ever heard of Constructive Dismissal

You might be able to make a claim for constructive dismissal if you resigned because your employer:
allowed people to bully or harass you at work.
made unreasonable changes to how you work, for example by forcing you to work longer hours.
demoted you.
refused to pay you.
didn't make sure your working environment was safe.

Yes, I have heard of constructive dismissal, however, where I see the difference (and of course, I am a lay person with limited information in this instance) is that several parties have confirmed the employer in this case is following guidelines.

Anyone resigning, then claiming constructive dismissal has a long road ahead of them to prove it, and I don't believe there is financial support whilst the battle ensues, so that could take much longer than the 3 months wait for UC. Yes, the claimant could end up with a bit more cash, but trust me, it is not an easy trip, and full of extreme stress.

At the end of the day, it seems Max has to spin the wheel of risk versus reward.

One end point would be that max has stated a few times he would like to go back to this employer once the COVID problem has passed. My opinion would be that if he does elect to sue his employed for constructive dismissal, the prospect of that body re-employing him would be minimal to zero.

Anyway, I'm out of this. I have no skin in the game