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Rises / Peaks after certain foods

As I understand it the IR that being on keto for example may cause is a short term thing and a day or two eating higher carb first will give an accurate OGTT.

The whole eating fat thing does go against the thinking of the last 40 yrs. it has been demonised as to blame for all sorts when it is in fact excess sugar (ie glucose) and now even mainstream are accepting this slowly. I think the stories you are hearing often come ultimately from those with vested interests and selective reporting of studies in popular press. As far as I’m aware fat mitigates because it is slower to digest and carbs that are mixed up with fat get slowed down along with it. I’ve not heard the fat blocks cells theory at all.

Personally whilst I’ve had to take it to extremes just to get numbers in the prediabetic range I believe most of the western population would benefit from changes, reducing some carbs and increasing some fats. By the new standards you quote I almost certainly would have been diagnosed with gestational diabetes 19-15 yrs ago and believe my IR may even predate that. Maybe why it’s so stubborn now.

Take a look at a few sites such as dietdoctor.com and ditchthecarbs.com. Both have easy references showing the high carb and low carb options in many food groups. Hopefully you can drop the highest swapping for the lower and not need drastic changes or insulin.

Any sugar is sugar: agave, honey, coconut etc etc. If you can’t drop the sweetness and want to avoid artificial stuff consider stevia, monk fruit or sugar alcohols like erythritol.

I try and avoid 2 hr readings in the 7 at all and I also try not to think of “getting away” with carbs food. It will slowly be adding pressure to a weakening system and I want to give it the best chance to recover, prolonging my ability to manage without medication rather than push it as far as I can possibly still making things worse albeit at a slower rate than I was pre diagnosis.

I have had a look at a few things on the diet doctor website, as well as Sarah Hallberg's talks on youtube. Before I fell pregnant this time, I had heard about the Keto diet and was experimenting with eating some of my meals that way. I have never really eaten low fat coming from Balkan / German decent with a father who dipped his bread in the pork roast drippings and a grandmother who baked the best biscuits with lard and now with a Serbian husband who eats meat for every meal, drowns his salads in olive oil, and renders his own lard, I happily eat fatty things. But I've always had a sweet tooth as well and my teeth will tell you just how bad that has been for me :p .
My biggest problem for the past 5 years (since having kids) has been overeating by snacking all day long (just to keep myself awake with all the sleep deprivation that comes along with babies), and often on something sweet with a cuppa. I'm even doing it now :p Coffee and an Anzac biscuit that the kids and I made this morning. I didn't want to make them because I have trouble resisting them and I pretty much gave up my daily biscuit habit when I had some major dental work done last year. But old habits die hard unfortunately and any excuse to justify it - it was my birthday yesterday so I tell myself I deserve it. But it's not the right way to look at it, is it? I deserve what? A treat? or a disease...? It takes a while to shift your perspective on these things. And I noticed a few on this forum somehow even manage to keep on with their desserts. Can that be achieved sans insulin I wonder? If not, does wanting sweets (or any naughty carb for that matter) despite needing to inject ourselves with insulin make us as bad as any drug addict? Or are we just so conditioned to want to be able to enjoy what we perceive as the good things in life because, otherwise, what's life without them? Can you really live a happy life if you feel absolutely deprived of something you love? Or do you just work on realising that there is actually much to love about raw vegetables? :D
 
Can you really live a happy life if you feel absolutely deprived of something you love? Or do you just work on realising that there is actually much to love about raw vegetables? :D
Perhaps not raw vegetables - but vegetables stir fried in butter are really nice. So is stilton or mature cheddar cheese, Nespresso coffee with a tsp of cream, Greek yogurt with flakes almonds sprinkled on top, and of course 85% chocolate. Although back to the raw vegetables - I do love raw sugar snap peas and never eat them cooked because they are so lovely raw.

What I have found is that when I look at foods I used to love I think 'yuk' and cannot believe that I found them irresistible.
 
Yes, stopped Metformin (in my view never should have been placed on it). I had terrible diabetic symptoms, particularly as I got thirsty, I was inadvertently poisoning myself with pure orange juice.

3.8 - 4.5 is easy but hard. Easy as in cut out refined carbs and sugar, and replace with fat and protein. I supplement with exercise which for me can swing measurements down overall by around 0.3 to 0.5 mmol. Hard as "our" default environments are sugar based and we focus on what we can't have as opposed to what we can.

I brought my HbA1c down by 50% in 3 months - had I known what I was doing, I could have done better, by 9 months I was in the non-diabetic range - again it was a learning exercise due to the current guidelines / brain washing (going Keto, I am sure I would have fully reversed within 3 months).

I feel best on OMAD, but I do like a lot of food, so compromise to get the nutrients in. OMAD is not right for your present situation in my view, but a well formulated LCHF / Keto diet can automatically almost force one to go from 3 meals to 2 and ultimately to 1, this is the advantage over low calorie alternatives.

My results I would classify as middle of the pack, as I choose to have berries, butternut squash and carrots, and sometimes a third to half a plate with non-starchy veg, which many cut out to be closer to full carnivore - on second thoughts I would say I do cyclical low carb / low starch / low sugar Keto with a preference for protein focus Keto, due to some meat only times.

It is satisfying studying what works to the goals set, but some don't respond for various reasons - most however do.


SO you were only on Metformin but never insulin? And after 9 months of Keto leading to OMAD, you've managed to get off Metformin all together? That's promising! Of course there was exercise too... something I would have to work on...

Out of those meals you photographed, I'm enviously looking at the desserts wondering how you get away with that. Do they have minimal sugar added and are sweetened more with the fruits? How many desserts per week would you be able to eat and still remain in ketosis? Or are you in mild ketosis and bump in and out when you eat a dessert (and does it even matter?)?
And do you ever test your levels at the 1hr peak after the desserts to know what kind of spikes they give you? What level of spike do you think is okay after eating a dessert or some amount of carbs? Is the aim always to keep your levels between high 3s or 4s and 7s, at the top end, or should you stay under 7.0 even during the peak spike of a meal? I know for me they want 6.7 two hours after eating. I can spike up to 7.8 at the 1hr and still make it back down to 6.7 by 2 hours, but I'm not sure if I should be aiming lower as a rule.

How has your cholesterol changed since you embarked on a keto diet? Mine at last reading in Dec 2016 already looked like I was eating the amount of fat they suggest on keto.. ha ha, but bad and good fats:

Total cholesterol: 7.5 mmol / L . (They want less than 5.0mmol)
Trigs: 0.9 mmol (They want less than 2.0 mmol fasting)
HDL-C: 3.1 mmol / L (They say over 1.2 mmol is favourable.)
LDL-C: 4.0 . (Should be less than 3.0 mmol)
Ratio: 2.4 . (Less than 6 is okay.)

If I went keto, I suspect I wouldn't be eating more of anything, (except maybe vegetables), just less of carbs. Although this week I have cut my portions down a lot because I suspect I eat more than I need to, even more than baby needs :p

Do you know of anyone, with or without diabetes, who has eaten LCHF long term? Maybe it was the Atkin's diet before Keto came along. I'm curious how things turn out long term.. But I guess in the short term, being able to get off the medication must feel like a victory!
 
Perhaps not raw vegetables - but vegetables stir fried in butter are really nice. So is stilton or mature cheddar cheese, Nespresso coffee with a tsp of cream, Greek yogurt with flakes almonds sprinkled on top, and of course 85% chocolate. Although back to the raw vegetables - I do love raw sugar snap peas and never eat them cooked because they are so lovely raw.

What I have found is that when I look at foods I used to love I think 'yuk' and cannot believe that I found them irresistible.

Having major dental work helped me look at biscuits a little differently. I still have the odd one but go straight upstairs to floss and rinse or brush it out. I can't afford to leave them sticking in my teeth anymore. But now I have to look at them in terms of blood sugar spikes as well. You'd think I'd have an easy time walking away from them altogether, wouldn't you? But I look at them thinking I can change them somehow. Make them with less sugar maybe. It's like not giving up on a relationship hoping your partner will change when really people don't change much, do they?
 
Hi @Cocosilk
I would encourage you to have a read up on the way that gestational diabetes differs from type 2 diabetes.
They develop differently and require different handling, particularly where insulin is concerned.
Please do not confuse the two, or the way they are handled.
 
Hi @Cocosilk
I would encourage you to have a read up on the way that gestational diabetes differs from type 2 diabetes.
They develop differently and require different handling, particularly where insulin is concerned.
Please do not confuse the two, or the way they are handled.

Don't worry, I am not about to try a keto diet at the moment (even though it seems to be promoted as a safe diet during pregnancy by some.) I've found in my first week that eating a plate with 1/2 vegetables, 1/4 "healthy" carbs and 1/4 protein (usually meat or fish in my case) is showing me that I can keep my post meal levels within a reasonable range. And I understand that if my fasting levels are still elevated, it's probably something to do with the placental or pregnancy hormones, which I can't do much about. So if Metformin or insulin are recommended, it's only going to be for a few months of my life hopefully. I'm just interested in how pre-diatbetes and T2 are managed by others to hopefully not end up there down the track.
I'm not game enough to try a ketogenic diet because I don't fully understand the bodily mechanisms behind ketones. I know in pregnancy I already have trace ketones floating around for whatever reason, and I know that in diabetics, high blood sugar and high ketone levels can mean ketoacidosis. So I'm not sure how, while being pregnant, I could safely find a middle ground in ketosis without my obstetrician raising alarm bells if more ketones start showing up for me.

Did you have Gestational Diabetes? How did you go with it?
 
Don't worry, I am not about to try a keto diet at the moment (even though it seems to be promoted as a safe diet during pregnancy by some.) I've found in my first week that eating a plate with 1/2 vegetables, 1/4 "healthy" carbs and 1/4 protein (usually meat or fish in my case) is showing me that I can keep my post meal levels within a reasonable range. And I understand that if my fasting levels are still elevated, it's probably something to do with the placental or pregnancy hormones, which I can't do much about. So if Metformin or insulin are recommended, it's only going to be for a few months of my life hopefully. I'm just interested in how pre-diatbetes and T2 are managed by others to hopefully not end up there down the track.
I'm not game enough to try a ketogenic diet because I don't fully understand the bodily mechanisms behind ketones. I know in pregnancy I already have trace ketones floating around for whatever reason, and I know that in diabetics, high blood sugar and high ketone levels can mean ketoacidosis. So I'm not sure how, while being pregnant, I could safely find a middle ground in ketosis without my obstetrician raising alarm bells if more ketones start showing up for me.

Did you have Gestational Diabetes? How did you go with it?

Didn't have it (never had children), but I have worked in offices with women with gestational diabetes and been astonished at the incredibly fast escalation of their need for medication and insulin. Also the very tight targets they were expected to keep (to avoid harming the baby) and their sheer terror of harming the baby by not keeping to those targets. Growth, development, bg levels, nutrition...
The rest of us got stressed by proxy!

There I was, rocking along on a keto/low carb way of eating, and I watched them escalate to (what I thought were massive) amounts of insulin within weeks. It was looking at a completely different condition.

Of course, these were women who had no inkling of low carbing - so I imagine that their insulin resistance was higher than someone who at least understood low GI or the principles of lower carbing. But then (at the time) there was deep concern about how cutting carbs might impact baby growth. That got discussed here on the forum. Low carb for foetuses, kids and babies... Although I have since seen testimonials about how people have brought healthy babies to term on low carb, keto and even carnivore. But I suspect they were all very experienced at eating that way rather than new to it, so they and their bodies were already adjusted. We get people who are new to low carbing here on the forum struggling with things like electrolyte balance, constipation, keto flu, muscle weakness, lowered appetite... and I would guess all those have greater implications during pregnancy, and to the baby.

I know I probably sound like a fussy mother hen ;) but I would absolutely hate you to pick up info here on the forum that impacted your baby negatively - although I do recognise that keeping insulin resistance low is beneficial to the child, in terms of its future health and liklihood of developing T2 in later life.
 
Lots of type 2 do come off of not just metformin but also insulin too with low carb / keto. So if you do end up that way it’s by no means the forgone conclusion previously assumed.

Desserts can be done. Often based around strawberries and raspberries, cream and using alternative flours such as almond or coconut and sweetener like stevia or erythritol. Nuts and cream cheese feature often too. Biscuits and cookies can be done in a similar way. Lots of online recipes. So again all is not lost.

As far as spikes go everyone diabetic or not will spike to some degree after food. It’s how much and for how long before it’s back under control that varies. For type 2 me personally I’m not too concerned by a one hour figure. I just want to know if I’m getting it back to a good level by two hours. That means it is a short spike at least more like a non diabetic. In order to achieve this I’m eating lower carb food which will also mean the spike doesn’t go ridiculously high either.

Your Hdl and trigs are amazing!

There are some members here that have done low carb long term. Hopefully they’ll pop up or you could start a separate thread
 
SO you were only on Metformin but never insulin? And after 9 months of Keto leading to OMAD, you've managed to get off Metformin all together? That's promising! Of course there was exercise too... something I would have to work on...

Out of those meals you photographed, I'm enviously looking at the desserts wondering how you get away with that. Do they have minimal sugar added and are sweetened more with the fruits? How many desserts per week would you be able to eat and still remain in ketosis? Or are you in mild ketosis and bump in and out when you eat a dessert (and does it even matter?)?
And do you ever test your levels at the 1hr peak after the desserts to know what kind of spikes they give you? What level of spike do you think is okay after eating a dessert or some amount of carbs? Is the aim always to keep your levels between high 3s or 4s and 7s, at the top end, or should you stay under 7.0 even during the peak spike of a meal? I know for me they want 6.7 two hours after eating. I can spike up to 7.8 at the 1hr and still make it back down to 6.7 by 2 hours, but I'm not sure if I should be aiming lower as a rule.

How has your cholesterol changed since you embarked on a keto diet? Mine at last reading in Dec 2016 already looked like I was eating the amount of fat they suggest on keto.. ha ha, but bad and good fats:

Total cholesterol: 7.5 mmol / L . (They want less than 5.0mmol)
Trigs: 0.9 mmol (They want less than 2.0 mmol fasting)
HDL-C: 3.1 mmol / L (They say over 1.2 mmol is favourable.)
LDL-C: 4.0 . (Should be less than 3.0 mmol)
Ratio: 2.4 . (Less than 6 is okay.)

If I went keto, I suspect I wouldn't be eating more of anything, (except maybe vegetables), just less of carbs. Although this week I have cut my portions down a lot because I suspect I eat more than I need to, even more than baby needs :p

Do you know of anyone, with or without diabetes, who has eaten LCHF long term? Maybe it was the Atkin's diet before Keto came along. I'm curious how things turn out long term.. But I guess in the short term, being able to get off the medication must feel like a victory!

PLEASE NOTE THAT MY RESPONSE IS NOT IN CONTEXT FOR PREGNANT PERSONS - THIS IS MY ANECDOTES WHICH I FEEL CAN ASSIST A NON PREGNANT PERSON:

Yes I was only on Metformin, with a HbA1c of 134, I am grateful to my surgery for not putting me directly on Insulin or a sulphonylurea, many surgeries would have gone straight to these more powerful interventions right away, with my excessive numbers.

Despite my high blood glucose, I dropped FBG by 25% in 1 week, whilst making what I now know to be basic errors (home made soda and banana bread consumption) - this is why in my example Metformin was not required. I started to reduce Metformin after a year and a half and totally around a year and three quarters after going most of the day with good numbers.

I tend to have what could be classified as a desert on 5 days a week (dark chocolate everyday), so at least 3 to 4 different types of berries, pancakes or waffles. The coconut based pancakes / waffles have 16 grams of carbs per 100, I have 20 grams in my recipe so a fifth of 16 grams, around 3.2 grams of carbs for around 6 waffles or 3 thick pancakes. I do not add any sweetener to my deserts as my taste buds have changed, I find 85% dark chocolate too sweet, which is brilliant as when I have had a 5 millimetre sliver of regular birthday cake, I hate it, and can smell the sugar (for me now this is not just mentally yuk, I do not associate this stuff as food).

I don't worry about Ketosis, as weight loss / maintenance is not dependent on this. I have experienced the "high" after 4 days of fasting; also I believe I am using more of the Ketones I produce so my numbers are not high in measurements (apart from previous multi-day fasts).

I have tested my protocol in the extreme at 30, 60, 90, 120 minutes, sometimes with 3 monitors and the Free Style Libre.

I accept that 7.8 mmol is the maximum level to go to after a meal, as this is said to be where microvascular damage begins, personally I am around 5.6 mmol 2 hours after a meal (low carb meal, followed by a walk). Spikes shouldn't go above 2 mmol from the starting point. I have been optimising i.e. what can I eat which is outside of general LCHF / Keto mainstream (butternut squash, carrots, sometimes parsnips) which keeps my HbA1c around 35 and my fbg around 4. I have pushed my boundaries and know I can get 3.4 fbgs if I go super heavy on the training or late 2's with multi-day fasting (Ketones take care of hypo potential, but this should not be attempted by anyone reading unless medically supervised - I understood my limits and the mechanisms). My objectives are to know where I can go to if I started to get raised numbers.

My total cholesterol has been between 4.9 and 6.1, the higher, was on 5 months of carnivore, so my LDL as expected (3.48) increased, with increases in HDL (2.37) and lowering of Triglycerides (0.28) - these are in my context what really count. Serum cholesterol/HDL ratio 2.52:1 (reference 4:1 or below). I would recommend the audio book "The Big Fat Surprise" if you have any anxiety (your Trigs and HDL are a big thumbs up). Also worth looking at QRISK, mine is 2.1 (QRISK2); it seems to me that the establishment accepts that HDL and Trigs are more indicative of risk than LDL as my stroke and heart attack risk has gone down despite the LDL number (insulin levels are are better CVD / CHD risk factor than LDL, and HS-CRP is a good number to know).

Traditional societies such as the Maasai, Inuit and others have eaten lower carb, higher fat for ages (before SAD influence), in Britain it was meat and 2 veg, which was lower carb than now (and less intervals). In the US total carbs in the 60's was circa 40% of calories. Prominent persons in this movement such as Professor Tim Noakes, Stephen Phinney, Peter Atia, Sarah Halberg, Ted Naimen, Eric Westman and thousands of their patients have eaten low carb higher fat for significant periods of time. It would be great if all those who have continued on low carb regimes such as Paleo etc were able to register this, I would say without references 100,000's have at any one time been low carb higher / healthier fat for at least a year over the last 20 years and many more entire societies have been lower carb for centuries; there have been high carb societies such as the Kitavans - I think these have eaten "clean" closer to natural carbs in a similar manner to original breads. It believe our modern diet tips the scales in terms of harming our ability to metabolise carbs.
 
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