Someone else who thinks like me..

GrantGam said:

There are a lot of carbs in the Western diet. But I think the lines between overeating and excessive carb intake are often blurred and muddled.

And regarding the smoking, that is harmful and many of the chemicals within tobacco are known to be poisonous. But to compare sandwiches with cigarettes is daft. And moreover, not the point I'm making.

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Over eating? Really?

If I was backed into a corner and forced to answer the question, my opinion (and it is just an opinion ... albeit based on some reading on the subject) is that carbohydrates do not directly cause diabetes. However, when we have diabetes, excess carbohydrates can make us ill and in that sense, with underlying diabetes, carbs could be described as "poison".
This is the same as someone with coeliac disease - gluten has not caused the condition but, once you have it, gluten can make you very ill.

GrantGam said:

Apparently there are various different risk factors and potential causes for developing T2D, they can be seen here:

https://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Diabetes-type2/Pages/Causes.aspx

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That link is misleading. Obesity doesn't cause T2 diabetes. Too much circulating insulin is a major cause of T2 diabetes. (there are other causes causes). Too much circulating insulin is caused by a high carb intake, and too much circulating insulin is a cause of obesity and insulin resistance. Unless carb consumption is restricted, it all becomes a vicious circle - insulin levels remain too high, more weight gain, more insulin resistance, T2 becomes worse. The aim should be to reduce the circulating insulin by reducing carbs, this will help improve IR, help with weight loss if necessary, and improve T2 control.

http://bjgp.org/content/67/657/158.3

Guzzler said:

Over eating? Really?

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Yes really. Carbs (in our Western diets) are often in a refined state. Refined carbs are often overindulged because they taste good. Crisps, sweets, fizzy drinks, etc.

It would be rarer to see someone overindulging on protein or fat, rather than carbs. That is why I said the lines between an excessive carb intake and over-eating are blurred. Because usually the two go hand in hand; certainly with the Western diet.

GrantGam said:

So consuming carbohydrates was the only thing that gave you diabetes @bulkbiker; just to clarify? There was nothing else?

I find it unusual how not everyone is diabetic, ill or dead in that case. Your argument is flawed and your use of the noun 'poison' is simply a choice rather than fact.

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Not wanting to misunderstand, are you saying that it's not possible for carbs to cause diabetes, there has to be something else in addition to carbs?

GrantGam said:

Yes really. Carbs (in our Western diets) are often in a refined state. Refined carbs are often overindulged because they taste good. Crisps, sweets, fizzy drinks, etc.

It would be rarer to see someone overindulging on protein or fat, rather than carbs. That is why I said the lines between an excessive carb intake and over-eating are blurred. Because usually the two go hand in hand; certainly with the Western diet.

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I think about more in terms of saturation point rather than overeating and this can be different for all of us.

hankjam said:

Not wanting to misunderstand, are you saying that it's not possible for carbs to cause diabetes, there has to be something else in addition to carbs?

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I'm contesting that carbs don't cause diabetes by themselves. In that instance, everyone who's ever eaten a sandwich would be hyperglycaemic, no?

If you want to add in factors such as eating too many carbs respective to your lifestyle, that's a different thing altogether.

Bluetit1802 said:

That link is misleading. Obesity doesn't cause T2 diabetes. Too much circulating insulin is a major cause of T2 diabetes. (there are other causes causes). Too much circulating insulin is caused by a high carb intake, and too much circulating insulin is a cause of obesity and insulin resistance. Unless carb consumption is restricted, it all becomes a vicious circle - insulin levels remain too high, more weight gain, more insulin resistance, T2 becomes worse. The aim should be to reduce the circulating insulin by reducing carbs, this will help improve IR, help with weight loss if necessary, and improve T2 control.

http://bjgp.org/content/67/657/158.3

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Thanks for the link @Bluetit1802; it made for interesting reading

I did see this though:

"Eating starch is eating glucose, which requires a corresponding insulin response. An insulin response with every snack and meal for years can, in genetically vulnerable people, cause insulin resistance with variable expression among people and among different body tissues."

So we can see that, even the article you kindly shared, that there isn't just one factor in the development of T2. So we can't just blame carbs.

Further to your comment about surplus circulating insulin - that's IR right? It's known that IR can be combatted pretty effectively through exercise. So unless all those who became IR and ultimately diabetic were getting the minimum recommended amount of exercise daily, we can't rule out lifestyle either as a potential cause.

I don't mean to debate the mechanics around developing T2D; but I'm demonstrating that there is a lot more to blame than carbs themselves. You really can't blame toast alone for the development of a chronic condition.

But back to the original question, are carbs poison - no they're not. If you want to class carbs as poison, then we must class all foods which have the potential to cause harm as poison. That includes nuts, dairy, fish, meat, the list goes on...There is always someone who will react to something, but you can't label it a poison just because of that.

I may be getting bogged down here, please correct me if I am reading too much into some statements.

'T2 has many causes. Overeating and lack of excercise being two of them'.
Then why do people like Sir Steve Redgrave develope T2? Are some comments coming close to the media portrayal of ALL T2s being fat and lazy?

Yes, there are causes plural but you cannot and must not take two 'possible' causes and make them the be alland end all of T2 Diabetes.

2 causes out of many - presumably the most common lifestyle ones that affect those of us with a genetically mediated vulnerability to developing T2 whilst the rest of the population are able to eat pretty much what they want while sat on their laurels

Boo1979 said:

2 causes out of many - presumably the most common lifestyle ones that affect those of us with a genetically mediated vulnerability to developing T2 whilst the rest of the population are able to eat pretty much what they want while sat on their laurels

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Fewer and fewer if the latest statistics on the numbers of people being dx with T2 are to be beleived.

Guzzler said:

I may be getting bogged down here, please correct me if I am reading too much into some statements.

'T2 has many causes. Overeating and lack of excercise being two of them'.
Then why do people like Sir Steve Redgrave develope T2? Are some comments coming close to the media portrayal of ALL T2s being fat and lazy?

Yes, there are causes plural but you cannot and must not take two 'possible' causes and make them the be alland end all of T2 Diabetes.

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Who are you quoting @Guzzler?

Steve Redgrave may have developed T2 through genetic predisposition, age or other means.

No-one is saying that ALL T2's are fat an lazy. It's more the fact that almost ALL T2's are blaming carbs solely and looking past the other risk factors.

Equally, you cannot and must not take carbohydrates and make it the be all and end all of T2 diabetes.

GrantGam said:

Further to your comment about surplus circulating insulin - that's IR right

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It is a chicken and egg situation, or at least that is how I see it. Which comes first? Too much insulin or insulin resistance? Each of these "conditions" cause the other one. As I said, a vicious circle. Boffins do know what causes too much insulin (carbohydrate in excess ) but don't know the root cause of IR other than the fact high fructose plays a major role. All they know is that hyperinsulinemia makes IR worse, and IR makes hyperinsulinemia worse, and by restricting carbs (and high fructose foods) both "conditions" drastically improve.

You may find this insulin index interesting.
https://public.tableau.com/profile/christoffer.green#!/vizhome/InsulinogenicFoodData/Dashboard1

GrantGam said:

Who are you quoting @Guzzler?

Steve Redgrave may have developed T2 through genetic predisposition, age or other means.

No-one is saying that ALL T2's are fat an lazy. It's more the fact that almost ALL T2's are blaming carbs solely and looking past the other risk factors.

Equally, you cannot and must not take carbohydrates and make it the be all and end all of T2 diabetes.

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I am not ignoring the fact that there may be a genetic pre disposition and that excess carbs may be a trigger of some sort. Until people learn that is not soley lifestyle choices (and that term alone speaks volumes) the the stigma will continue to dog peoples' lives.

GrantGam said:

Equally, you cannot and must not take carbohydrates and make it the be all and end all of T2 diabetes.

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Sadly once we are diagnosed as T2 that's exactly what it is. Carbs alone may not have caused T2, but reducing carbs is the only way we have of controlling it, especially if we are overweight. Having insulin doesn't help as we need lots of it because of our insulin resistance and that makes us even fatter. The fatter you are the harder it is to exercise.

Carbohydrate intake levels are of major / prime importantance for all T2 in terms of controlling BS levels, but again they are not the only thing - protein, calories and fat intake are all part of the picture and the relative importance of each element will show some individual variation. To concentrate everything (in terms of understanding the genesis of diabetes and approach its management and / or treatment) on one of these elements seems to me to be to unhelpfully narrow rather than expand the possibilities and the applicability

zand said:

Sadly once we are diagnosed as T2 that's exactly what it is. Carbs alone may not have caused T2, but reducing carbs is the only way we have of controlling it, especially if we are overweight. Having insulin doesn't help as we need lots of it because of our insulin resistance and that makes us even fatter. The fatter you are the harder it is to exercise.

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Couldn't agree more @zand. But I'm focusing on causes, not what aggravates T2 diabetes as a pre-existing medical condition. Moderating your carb intake does help with the managing of diabetes, both T1 and T2.

Guzzler said:

I am not ignoring the fact that there may be a genetic pre disposition and that excess carbs may be a trigger of some sort.

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We can now agree that simply blaming one factor (carbs) for the development of T2D is nonsense, that's good. A wild claim which was made by the OP.

GrantGam said:

We can now agree that simply blaming one factor (carbs) for the development of T2D is nonsense, that's good. A wild claim which was made by the OP.

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But without the amount, the sheer excess of carbs in the western diet the trigger may never have been set in motion. It seems logical to me that excess carbs cause disease, limiting those very carbs leads to a better prognosis imo.