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Something MUST be done!!!!

This is a discussion on what should be done for Type 2's Jopar. As far as I'm concerned Type 1's have DAFNE which teaches them about carbs and insulin doses.

Type 2's either get not enough information or incorrect information.

DUK peddle that carbohydrates are essential to the brain http://www.diabetes.org.uk/Guide-to-dia ... bohydrate/ and to include starchy carbohydrates in your diet http://www.diabetes.org.uk/Guide-to-dia ... ting-well/

This information is also peddled in many information leaflets given to newly diagnosed - examples include
http://www.diabetes-healthnet.ac.uk/Doc ... e%2009.pdf

http://www.salforddiabetescare.co.uk/in ... nav_id=281

http://www.avondiabetes.nhs.uk/diabetes ... abetes.pdf

One telling you to eat 50% of your meals as carbs ... https://www.lillypro.co.uk/diabetes/pat ... betes/home

We have to get it out there that eating (starchy) carbs is bad for your blood sugar levels. Not everyone is going to do it the same and not everyone is going to be as evangelical as certain people on here. BUT we have to get this information changed. The low fat message has been going on too long as well.

We are proof that eating less carbs is good for your blood sugar levels.

I was given the DUK leaflets and I was told to cut out sugar. I was wrongly concentrating on the 'of which sugars' bit on a food label and thought bread was good. Only after a period of bad control did I find this forum and the cutting carbs advice, the rest they say is history ...
 
jopar said:
Which seems to be, replace the currant mantra with your own mantra and lob meter/test trips at everyone.. Which is yet another blanket one glove fits all mantra!
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It doesn't have to fit everyone, but it just so happens that the approach we are suggesting would help the vast majority of T2 diabetics.

  1. Educate T2 Diabetics as to the benefits of carb-moderation
  2. Educate T2 Diabetics as to the benefit of eating to the meter
  3. Provide testing equipment to said Diabetics
  4. Support them in putting 1 and 2 into practice.

(Step 3 is desirable but not entirely necessary)

Why do you think this wouldn't work?

What NEEDS to be done

Is bringing in INDIVIDUALISM by dumping set mantra and working with the diabetic as an individual with an array of different mantra's...

And it's the lack of individualism which is the main problem... So replacing one mantra with another blanket mantra the problems still exist and the long term impact both on the outcome and cost of treatment will remain the same!


The benefit of carb moderation is universal to all T2 Diabetics. The degree to which they moderate their intake is determined by the meter. As you can see, the programme is perfectly (and explicitly) individualised.


No-one is suggesting anyone follow a VLC diet, unless it's the solution that they come to by the eating to the meter protocol described above.

Please stop trying to derail the discussion by turning every thread into an excuse to express your prejudice about VLC. It's not relevant and you have demonstrated elsewhere you don't understand it very well...
 
And yet again Jo, why do you keep bringing your pump into a discussion about strips for T2 diabetics?

It's a bit like me flaunting my Mercedes-Benz to people in a soup-kitchen.
 
))Denise(( said:
This is a discussion on what should be done for Type 2's
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I wasn't aware of that Denise and was under the impression it was what we could do collectively, being in The Diabetes Soapbox - Have Your Say Section leaves it open for anyone to reply, perhaps the OP could ask for this thread to be moved to the Type 2 section to avoid further confusion.
 
I see the meter and test strips as essential tools to enable us to make our individual routes to low blood sugar levels, along with the teaching so we can interpret and understand what our body is doing with the foods we eat, and how to change our foods to suit our individual requirements.

Not an extra, not an extravagant toy, but essential.

And I think that is the same whether we are T2's on diet only, or T1's trying to keep the insulin they need as low as possible, and every variety in between.

That is why I believe that the need for the means to carry out self-testing is the pivotal message at the moment.
 
No, of course you're right Nigel, this thread was really an impassioned plea to get more pumps for T1 diabetics. All the context you need is in the rather excellent OP. It's worth a read.
 
borofergie said:
No, of course you're right Nigel, this thread was really an impassioned plea to get more pumps for T1 diabetics. All the context you need is in the rather excellent OP. It's worth a read.
Click to expand...

Not sure what your saying here :?
 
Sorry Nigle I was responding to this:

The discussion is about getting access to strips and support for T2 diabetics, almost all of whom get vastly inferior treatment to T1s. I was merely pointing out that Jopar telling us about her pump was not relevant to those of us who can't even test our own blood.

Capiche?
 
jopar said:
Which seems to be, replace the currant mantra with your own mantra and lob meter/test trips at everyone.. Which is yet another blanket one glove fits all mantra!
Click to expand...

Well I've already said "Eat to your meter" is very appropriate for newly diagnosed T2's and nothing you say will persuade me otherwise. You may disagree but I think you'l find on this forum you are in a very very small minority if you don't think testing for newly diagnosed T2 forum members is a good thing.

Externally to the forum I also made my view very clear which is the combination of "Eat to your meter" plus info on low carbing or low GI or whatever you want to call it should be provided as an OPTION that gets told to the newly diagnosed. No different to the OPTIONS that are provided to T2's to attend a dietary course or other courses. I would go as far as saying if a newly diagnosed chooses that OPTION and then shows no inclination to succeed then the strips should be very rapidily withdrawn and other OPTIONS should be discussed with that patient.

jopar said:
And it's the lack of individualism which is the main problem...
Click to expand...
Go back and reread what I and others have said on this thread. I specifically state that "Eat to your meter" be adopted within the framework of an individual approach to patient self management.

jopar said:
So is somebody like Hana wise to demand that somebody like CC should follow the VLC diet hana follows when CC gets the same control as hana without having to take any medication to achieve!
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It is obvious to anyone reading this thread that everyone is bending over backwards NOT to impose a personal view of control on others. I thought in the last few weeks we'd seen an end to all that nonsense and that finally this forum could move past that historic rubbish. You seem to wish to continue causing conflict.

Go back and reread what I and others have said on this thread about that very issue. You are missing the WHOLE point of "Eat to your meter" by making the statement you just have.

Rather than trash other peoples idea's and attempt to derail the thread it would be nice if you contributed positively. Even if you don't agree with "Eat to your meter" rather than just rubbishing the idea which takes very little intelligence why don't you advocate an alternative?
 
The original Poster advocated givig something like Daisy's post to the newly diagnosed to all those concerned with the care of the newly diagnosed diabetic.
My reading of his post was that he appreciates the test strip issue but feels that this is unlikely to succeed any time soon but that
something on the lines of the advice to the newly diagnosed on here could have an immediate impact in saving lives.
That is what happens here. The advice is given o everyone T1 or T2 .
The self testing issue is referred to bu t we don't withold the advice until we know the poster has a meter and strips
The bes and most effective ideas are often the simplest.

This is what the discussion is about. What we do about the suggestion and the most effective way to go about it.
The rest of the usual arguments could perhaps be postponed or moved to a thread specifically to discuss xyzzy's ideas about a position statement for the forum?

Viv's post is very informative and helpful and full of her usual commonsense.

United we stand....etc
 
Unbeliever said:
The original Poster acdvocated givig something like Daisy's post to the newly diagnosed to all those concerned with the care of he newly diagnosed diabetic.
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Yes I agree unbeliever. I see there is no difference between what you are suggesting and what I have called a "Position Statement". It would serve exactly the purpose you are suggesting.

All I am pointing out is that once that new statement exists it could also be used in a wider context with the simplest option for it to be adopted by DCUK itself as well as the forum.

Whatever the case to get that position statement will require "the membership" to draw up the statement.

Perhaps if the OP thinks the thread is going off topic from their original thoughts they could indicate as such and then the mods could do their stuff if required.
 
I've been following this thread and to me it has been about the bad dietary information given to T2's on diagnosis and the refusal to prescribe strips but maybe I've seen it that way because I'm a T2.

I'm sure T1's have other problems such as not getting pumps when they need them.

All diabetics need the best possible information to act upon so they can reduce the risk of complications, I do not want to go blind or have bits of me chopped off.

I couldn't believe some of the information in those leaflets that I posted the links to, eating scones was one of the suggestions.

If you have been eating a carb based diet, then it will come as a bit of a shock to be told that bread, pasta, rice and potatoes are on the 'I don't think so..' list along with cakes, sweets and sweet drinks. I think the leaflets are doing a softly, softly approach to make sure people stick to their new way of eating. But if you had some other disease which meant you had to change your diet otherwise you would be dead soon, then you would do it, the fact that T2 doesn't kill you immediately if you don't make dietary changes makes it easy for the outdated information to persist.
 
Can I just point out that the original poster's profile says Type 1.5.

I think that the help many of you get compared to what I have received had is poor.
I know that my hospital gets excellent results with both T1s and T2s. The T2s they deal with are often people who have not done well with initial control with GPs, though anyone can get themselves referred.
I think their success comes from very good education, both individual from the dietitian and on in patient courses. They definitely don't encourage low carb; though they teach the importance of counting them, eating consistent amounts and which type to select (GI). They don't just concentrate on carbs, balanced meals are emphasised (and how to do it) and of course exercise isn't forgotten I have a sneaking suspicion that many people do what they are told by their doctors (the French education system even at undergraduate level emphasises facts, grades and tends to discourage questioning) I know I've been told off for not eating enough carbs at lunchtime by other patients (I vary mine and dose adjust, this isn't taught)

I think it takes a big investment in time to get good results and even then it depends on motivation. Look at the recent Swedish trial, the participants had quite a bit of input but they weren't totally compliant and after 2 years there was no improvement in HbA1c in either LF or LC group . The weight loss was similar for both groups (and minimal)
The people on internet forums are very unrepresentative in their motivation.
 
phoenix said:
The people on internet forums are very unrepresentative in their motivation.
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I agree with this. People like us who actively look for help and information are in the minority. But are we really so surprised? In the past we have all listened to advice given to us by our GP's etc and their word was law. They knew more about the human body and what ails it, much better than we do!

We (diabetics) are in quite a unique position, where advice given is not correct for our condition. I have said this over and over, but will repeat again. I am T2 and know very little about T1. So my post are aimed at T2, but there again, T2 are overwhelmingly in the majority of diabetics.

Motivation and a want to change is key to all of this. If the dietary advice was given to reduce carbs, some diabetics would, others as the do now, would take their chances. However, I am passionate that diabetics of all types are given correct nutritional information, so they can make an informed choice about their own condition. This applies here, the NHS policy makers and DUK. When I was first diagnosed, I found DUK before I found this forum, and I dutifully paid my subs to become a member, thinking they would not lead me down a blind alley!! Hm... I then found this forum, and was furious at the DUK, but by then it was too late, subs were paid, and dietary advice, and newsletters were on there way. (I have one magazine from DUK sitting here unopened). There is a vital need to get the carbs message out all over. All HCP, the NHS and DUK. THEN, and only then can we hope that all diabetics will receive the correct information they need, and we all deserve.
 
Diabetes UK is backing the efforts to get strips for everyone, but it suits the NHS to pay for treatment for complications rather than prevent them.
Hana
 
hanadr said:
Diabetes UK is backing the efforts to get strips for everyone, but it suits the NHS to pay for treatment for complications rather than prevent them.
Hana
Click to expand...


That is a positive move Hana, next persuading them about the poison carbs. Why do I feel that will be a much bigger struggle?
 
I read somewhere that DCUK is partly funded by Kellogg. Wouldnt that make getting the message through harder if there is a conflict of interest?
 
phoenix said:
They definitely don't encourage low carb; though they teach the importance of counting them, eating consistent amounts and which type to select (GI).
Click to expand...
Well apparently mine are encouraging low carb and it is one of the country's leading diabetic centres. Of course the term "low carb" can mean a range of things but at the very minimum if must imply some reduction in carbohydrate is being recommended.

phoenix said:
The people on internet forums are very unrepresentative in their motivation.
Click to expand...
Don't quite understand what you're getting at there? You post on the internet, are your views unrepresentative? What purpose does that statement have? It's pretty a pretty nihilistic view as it kind of invalidates this and other forums existence.
 

The old "adherence" argument is a complete red-herring. Adherence to low-carbohydrate diets is at least as good as to other dietary interventions and frequently substantially better.

If you give people the education, tools and support to control their diabetes and they still choose not to take care of themselves then they are making a choice, and frankly deserve whatever complications they end up getting.

We should be concerned with giving everyone access to adequate levels of education, tools and support, and not just assuming that most of the population is too dumb to understand what a carb is.
 
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